[00:00] When leaders are cynical they'll
[00:02] Institute practices that really display
[00:05] a low level of trust and low level of
[00:08] faith in the people in their
[00:09] organization a lot of companies
[00:11] installed spyware on their employees
[00:14] computers to like make sure that their
[00:16] their faces were on camera or their
[00:18] mouses were moving and that type of
[00:22] organizational cynicism from leaders
[00:26] quickly spreads through all of their
[00:28] employees
[00:30] [Music]
[00:37] all right well welcome to the show it's
[00:38] great to have you it's great to be here
[00:40] I'm very curious what piqued your
[00:42] interest in researching cynicism well uh
[00:46] it would actually be my own experience
[00:49] you know I've spent 20 years studying I
[00:53] guess you could say human goodness so my
[00:55] lab and I study things like empathy
[00:58] compassion kind
[01:01] togetherness and through that work I've
[01:05] sort of become a little bit of an
[01:07] ambassador for those positive qualities
[01:10] people bring me in to talk about how
[01:12] great everybody is and this whole time
[01:15] AJ I've lived with a little bit of a
[01:17] secret which is that even though I know
[01:20] what my data tell me I believe that
[01:23] people are really oriented towards each
[01:25] other and are really kind and wonderful
[01:27] I don't always feel that and in fact in
[01:30] fact for a long time I've secretly been
[01:32] pretty cynical about people myself so
[01:35] this book began as my attempt to explore
[01:38] why the heck I couldn't get on board
[01:40] with my own science and grew into much
[01:42] more than that well I know you mentioned
[01:44] in the book that you're an introvert do
[01:45] you feel that your introversion played a
[01:47] role in the cynicism I would say it's
[01:49] almost the other way around uh you know
[01:52] for for me not for all introverts but I
[01:55] think for a lot of people who shy away
[01:57] from others it's because we kind of have
[02:00] this implicit theory that other people
[02:03] won't like us very much or maybe that
[02:05] there that conversations will go poorly
[02:08] I think of these as social shark attacks
[02:10] you know like one thing that I
[02:12] experience a lot is I'll be getting
[02:14] ready to give a talk or go to a party or
[02:18] even just visit with an old friend
[02:20] somebody who I know is great and I I
[02:23] again feel like hey this will this will
[02:24] be really fun but I keep on having these
[02:27] intrusive thoughts about well what if
[02:29] everybody hates me or what if what if
[02:32] this conversation is awful and awkward
[02:35] and I think of that as similar to shark
[02:37] attacks because shark attacks as you
[02:39] know are exceedingly rare but people
[02:42] nonetheless are terrified of them and it
[02:45] turns out that bad conversations are
[02:47] sort of like that most conversations are
[02:49] pretty good but if you ask people to
[02:52] imagine what those conversations will be
[02:53] like they think that they'll be much
[02:55] more Awkward less connected and less
[02:58] positive than they really are so just
[03:00] like shark attacks We Fear them and even
[03:03] though they're very unlikely to happen
[03:05] so in that it seems like that negativity
[03:07] is is self-judgment so I'm going to do
[03:10] poorly I'm going to make it awkward
[03:12] they're not going to like me and in
[03:14] cynicism the negativity is towards
[03:16] others that's actually a really good way
[03:18] of putting it I would say that the two
[03:20] can mix together a lot as well you know
[03:22] you can think gosh this party is going
[03:24] to be terrible because nobody's going to
[03:26] want want to talk to me because they're
[03:28] all so obsessed with themselves you know
[03:31] so there's a way that that cynicism and
[03:34] and I suppose doubts about ourselves
[03:37] really can uh turn into this vicious
[03:40] cycle that pulls us out of connection
[03:42] and conversation I think we've all
[03:44] encountered a cynic but I'd love to get
[03:46] the definition scientifically of what
[03:48] cynicism is looks like feels like yeah
[03:52] cynicism the way I think about it is
[03:55] it's a theory about people it's the
[03:58] theory that people are self greedy and
[04:01] dishonest uh it was first really brought
[04:04] into the world of psychology scientific
[04:06] Psychology by two researchers uh Walter
[04:10] cook and Donald medley they wanted to
[04:12] come up with a test for teachers to see
[04:15] which teachers would get along with
[04:16] their students and which ones wouldn't
[04:18] so they asked teachers to answer to say
[04:20] whether they agreed with 50 different
[04:22] statements like most people will get
[04:24] away with anything if you let them um or
[04:27] people only care about you because they
[04:29] want to see seem friendly and it turned
[04:31] out that the more of these statements
[04:33] that teachers agreed with the worse that
[04:35] their relationships with their students
[04:37] were but it wasn't just teachers it was
[04:39] all of us if you agreed with these
[04:41] statements you tended to be a kind of
[04:43] prickly unfriendly and judgmental
[04:46] individual uh and that's how we think of
[04:48] cynicism now you know just like other
[04:51] theories cynicism changes what we do
[04:54] right the theory of gravity the idea
[04:56] that if you you know if you jump from a
[04:59] high place you'll fall quickly stops us
[05:01] from trying to LEAP tall leap off tall
[05:04] buildings and fly right because we we
[05:06] know that gravity is there cynicism the
[05:09] idea that people are selfish stops us
[05:11] from doing other things like putting
[05:13] faith in them or trusting them right
[05:15] every time you trust somebody You're
[05:17] vulnerable to them and cynics think that
[05:20] that vulnerability Is for Suckers so
[05:21] they tend to trust people less and then
[05:24] of course people reflect that back to
[05:26] you so they're distrusting of you so
[05:28] it's a trap right it it is a behavior
[05:31] that we have towards others based on a
[05:33] view of how others are going to act and
[05:35] then in return we see them act exactly
[05:38] that way because of the actions that
[05:39] we're putting forward that's so well put
[05:41] I I know on the on the show you've
[05:43] talked before about confirmation bias
[05:45] right the idea that when you think
[05:47] something you when you believe something
[05:50] you start sort of thinking like a lawyer
[05:52] and looking for evidence that supports
[05:54] your claim and maybe ignoring evidence
[05:56] that doesn't cynics are like that too
[05:59] there was uh famous study where cynics
[06:01] and non- cynics looked at at a video of
[06:04] two people uh talking one talking about
[06:07] their problems the other person
[06:08] comforting the first and non- cynics
[06:10] thought the person who was listening was
[06:12] really warm and empathic and cynics
[06:14] thought that they were really cold and
[06:16] maybe that they were bored that they had
[06:19] ulterior motives for being there and
[06:21] when you think in that way as you're
[06:23] beautifully putting it you act in a way
[06:26] that's judgmental or maybe you seem
[06:28] really skittish around others and as
[06:31] you're also saying other people reflect
[06:33] that right back to you we reciprocate
[06:35] other people's trust and we retaliate
[06:38] when other people treat us poorly so
[06:40] cynics end up creating evidence for
[06:43] their own beliefs and not realizing that
[06:45] they're the ones generating that
[06:47] evidence and I think an important part
[06:49] of this is recognizing that those
[06:51] thoughts although we may feel their
[06:53] internal our non-verbal reactions the
[06:56] choice of words that we use in our
[06:58] communication can really showcase that
[07:01] cynicism more openly than we might
[07:03] believe so in our training program on
[07:05] the first day we actually film our
[07:07] clients talking to our coaches and then
[07:10] we show them back the video and first
[07:12] with no audio just looking at what is
[07:14] their body language and the clients that
[07:17] tend to be the most cynical coming into
[07:19] the program don't realize that they're
[07:22] not smiling they're not showcasing any
[07:24] interest in the Comm the conversation
[07:27] that's happening in front of them and of
[07:28] course that person who's is
[07:29] communicating with them starts to then
[07:31] reflect back that disinterest that
[07:33] awkwardness and not want to be there and
[07:35] those that are introverted but not
[07:38] cynical they can still have that warmth
[07:40] even though there's discomfort going on
[07:42] but there isn't this belief that the
[07:44] other person is thinking about them
[07:46] negatively or viewing them in a way that
[07:48] doesn't want to communicate with them so
[07:49] it's really interesting how we often
[07:51] think those beliefs that we have
[07:53] internally are actually influencing more
[07:56] of our communication non-verbal and
[07:57] verbal than we realize W I love that you
[08:00] do that that's such a great way to bring
[08:02] people into self-awareness and I
[08:05] completely agree you know we we have
[08:08] this I think a lot of us walk around
[08:10] with this uh belief that we passively
[08:14] receive the world that we're just
[08:16] observing other people and events and
[08:19] and things happening in fact we act on
[08:22] the world even when we don't know we're
[08:25] doing it we are really present and
[08:27] influential and we create in many
[08:30] important ways the social world that we
[08:32] inhabit and I think that what what
[08:35] you're getting at through this really
[08:37] helpful exercise with your with your
[08:39] clients is that we need to be aware of
[08:42] that power that we have in shaping the
[08:46] conversations that we have the
[08:48] relationships that we have and I think
[08:49] that overcoming
[08:51] cynicism as a one of the first steps
[08:53] towards doing so is embracing and
[08:56] understanding that power and saying hey
[08:58] it's not just me responding to a bunch
[09:00] of jerks all over me all all around me
[09:03] in in the world I have power to change
[09:06] who people are and how they treat me and
[09:09] by by changing how I treat them first
[09:12] yeah it's such a powerful mindset shift
[09:14] to recognize that and then to act on it
[09:16] in ways that influence the way people
[09:18] behave around you now I know for a lot
[09:21] of our listeners they might be curious
[09:22] to know what is sort of the relationship
[09:25] between skepticism and cynicism because
[09:27] it feels like we can be skeptical maybe
[09:30] not cynical uh what's going on there and
[09:33] and how do the two relate to each other
[09:34] that is such a great question um and I
[09:37] think it's really important because
[09:39] definitions in this space can be really
[09:41] confusing and sometimes when I tell
[09:43] people hey you know cism isn't really
[09:46] that helpful they say well sorry I'm not
[09:48] just going to believe everything that
[09:50] people tell me they think that the
[09:51] opposite of cynicism is gullibility or
[09:55] being naive being a chump a mark a Rube
[09:58] basically
[09:59] and if that's your only alternative well
[10:01] gosh I can understand why you would go
[10:03] for cynicism
[10:04] instead but it's not it's not your only
[10:08] other option and in fact I would say
[10:10] that being really gullible and being
[10:12] really cynical are actually more similar
[10:15] than cynic would like to admit right
[10:18] because both gullible people and cynics
[10:21] are pretty credulous right they they are
[10:24] they they rely on their assumptions a
[10:26] gullible person will think that people
[10:28] can be trusted and Will Keep On
[10:30] Believing that even after they you know
[10:32] take him for a ride a a cynical person
[10:35] will think that people cannot be trusted
[10:37] and will continue to believe that even
[10:39] if somebody treats them really well you
[10:41] know the opposite of both of those is to
[10:44] be a skeptic skepticism is you can think
[10:48] of it as a scientific mindset instead of
[10:50] a lawyerly mindset right it's it's this
[10:53] hunger for more information it's a
[10:55] desire to not believe things unless you
[10:57] have evidence for them
[10:59] and in that way skepticism and cynicism
[11:03] really couldn't be more different
[11:05] research finds that people's levels of
[11:08] skepticism are pretty much uncorrelated
[11:10] with their levels of cynicism so you can
[11:13] be somebody who's looking for more
[11:15] information evaluating the evidence
[11:17] thinking like a scientist and be pretty
[11:19] cynical too or you can be that way and
[11:22] be very trusting so I think it's
[11:24] important to remember that you know
[11:26] whereas cynicism is a lack of faith in
[11:27] people skepticism is a lack of faith in
[11:30] our assumptions and that second mindset
[11:33] can be really sharp right it doesn't
[11:35] mean taking every everything that people
[11:37] say at their word it doesn't mean
[11:39] sending your bank account information to
[11:41] the prince who's wants to give you $15
[11:43] million over email right it's it's
[11:46] rather being open to the world and ready
[11:49] to learn from it and from other people
[11:52] now I'm curious with this cynicism do
[11:54] you find scientifically that it's
[11:56] contagious um Can groups become become
[11:59] more cynical over time what are sort of
[12:01] the forces going on behind the scenes
[12:03] that might be influencing our cynicism
[12:06] yeah absolutely it can be
[12:08] contagious I mean one macro piece of
[12:11] example for that is that cynicism has
[12:13] been catching like a you know like a
[12:16] plague uh across our culture over the
[12:18] last 50 years in
[12:20] 1972 about 50% of Americans believed
[12:23] most people can be trusted by 2018 that
[12:26] had fallen to about a third the side of
[12:29] that drop is comparable to the fall in
[12:31] the stock market during the 2008
[12:34] financial collapse so we're really going
[12:36] through a collective trust deficit which
[12:38] speaks to the contagion that you're
[12:39] talking about there are two levels at
[12:42] which people have studied that contagion
[12:43] at a more fine grained level one is
[12:46] within one-on-one interactions and
[12:49] relationships and this gets back to the
[12:50] point you were making about these
[12:52] self-fulfilling prophecies so there's
[12:54] lots of evidence in studies from
[12:57] economics and so sociology in Psychology
[13:00] that when one person is cynical they
[13:02] treat other people in ways that
[13:05] Telegraph that cynicism as you said
[13:08] we're not as good at hiding it as we
[13:10] might think we are right and when other
[13:12] people see that we're treating them
[13:14] cynically they in turn trust us less
[13:18] they start to act in ways that are more
[13:20] selfish so that's one micro level of
[13:23] contagion and then there's a middle
[13:25] level of contagion which happens a lot
[13:27] in organizations and communities
[13:29] and that's especially when leaders are
[13:32] cynical so if a CEO is really cynical
[13:36] they'll Institute practices that are
[13:40] that that really display a low level of
[13:43] trust and low level of faith in the
[13:45] people in their Organization for
[13:47] instance micromanaging them or
[13:49] monitoring them one example of this
[13:52] during the pandemic millions of people
[13:54] started working remotely for the first
[13:56] time and their bosses could have said
[13:59] okay well great try to get your work
[14:00] done we're living in generational levels
[14:03] of chaos right now just do what you can
[14:06] and and come back to me when you've when
[14:08] you finished your work um and have been
[14:11] flexible and trusting but instead a lot
[14:14] of companies installed spyware on their
[14:17] employees computers to like make sure
[14:19] that their their faces were on camera or
[14:21] their mouses were moving and that type
[14:25] of organizational cynicism from leaders
[14:29] quickly spreads through all of their
[14:31] employees so employees who are treated
[14:35] this way will will really start to
[14:37] reflect that lack of trust back to their
[14:40] bosses and to their colleagues as well
[14:42] so that's the sort of middle level at
[14:45] which we see a lot of contagion of
[14:47] cynicism in that environment where the
[14:50] leadership is cynical there's this lack
[14:53] of psychological safety that creates
[14:56] incentives to behave in ways that
[14:58] further the cynicism so if you're
[15:00] feeling like you're being judged harshly
[15:03] it's easier for you then to point out
[15:05] other people's failings and judge them
[15:06] harshly throwing each other under the
[15:08] bus and not actually collectively
[15:10] working towards the goal but in those
[15:13] situations it can be very hard to fight
[15:15] that culturally when you feel from the
[15:17] top that the cynicism is emanating
[15:19] through spy wear and the way that
[15:21] they're running meetings or the way that
[15:22] they're hiring and firing people so what
[15:24] can we do in that situation where we
[15:26] find ourselves immersed in an
[15:27] environment where the leader is cynical
[15:31] we ourselves might be skeptical not
[15:33] cynical and want to be optimistic gosh
[15:36] it's a really hard situation for a lot
[15:38] of people and I've talked with so many
[15:40] folks who are in that exact situation
[15:43] they don't want to be cynical but they
[15:45] feel as though the environment that
[15:47] they're in at work is forcing it out of
[15:49] them turning them into a version of
[15:51] themselves that they don't want to be I
[15:54] think there's a many ways that you can
[15:56] respond to that one is to focus on your
[16:00] organizational backyard or your social
[16:03] microclimate right I mean you may not be
[16:05] able to change a thousand person or a
[16:08] 10,000 person organization if the CEO is
[16:11] really cynical but maybe you can have
[16:13] conversations with your team right if
[16:15] you're a middle manager for instance or
[16:18] uh just with your colleagues if you if
[16:21] you're an individual contributor the
[16:22] people who you work most closely with
[16:24] and say hey let's make a PCT let's be on
[16:27] the same side here let's work towards
[16:30] common goals as opposed to you know
[16:33] backstabbing or doubting one another and
[16:36] one way that you can accelerate that
[16:38] process is by Leading through example
[16:41] right as we've talked about people
[16:44] retaliate against cynicism if you treat
[16:47] people badly they'll treat you badly you
[16:49] can be the first mover towards the other
[16:52] side of that equation right by saying
[16:55] hey maybe we can do better here and then
[16:57] acting in ways you take leaps of faith
[17:00] on people where you show up for them
[17:02] it's it's a risk of course right I mean
[17:04] there's the risk that you go out on a
[17:06] limb and people break it behind you and
[17:09] you tumble to the ground but that's the
[17:11] type of risk that you might have to take
[17:13] to see if you can turn a vicious cycle
[17:16] into a virtuous one the upside of all
[17:19] this though is that if you can in your
[17:21] own team in a larger organization work
[17:24] cooperatively even amidst a competitive
[17:27] and cynical organization you're going to
[17:29] win at a bottom line level as well the
[17:32] secret here is that cynicism doesn't
[17:35] just feel bad it also does poorly in
[17:38] terms of teams productivity their
[17:40] efficiency and creativity so if you can
[17:42] create a a an island of anti- cynicism
[17:46] in a cynical sea you will actually
[17:49] perform better uh than people who can't
[17:52] and I think it's important to note I was
[17:53] talking with the Executive coaching
[17:55] client of ours and and she was in that
[17:57] very similar situation where
[17:59] effort here is actually more important
[18:01] at the beginning than outcome
[18:03] recognizing that maybe you don't have as
[18:04] much power to change the forces above
[18:06] you and maybe your team would love you
[18:09] to really shift the outcomes but just
[18:11] you putting in the effort and showcasing
[18:13] to your team and your peers that this is
[18:16] the values that you're bringing and this
[18:17] is what you're putting forward in your
[18:19] communication and transparency even if
[18:22] the outcome doesn't shift as much as
[18:23] your team would like they're going to
[18:25] follow your lead based on the effort
[18:27] that you're putting in to EST establish
[18:29] this optimism on the team this
[18:31] cooperativity that ultimately allows
[18:33] them to start to feel safe working with
[18:36] you often times if we're in a situation
[18:39] where we feel powerless and we feel that
[18:41] our manager is not acting at all on what
[18:45] we would love to see happen then of
[18:46] course we're not going to want to be
[18:48] productive we're going to be looking
[18:49] elsewhere for jobs and ultimately we're
[18:51] going to get nowhere near the outcome
[18:53] and it it takes a lot of effort but over
[18:56] time the more people that you have
[18:58] coming together in this Cooperative
[19:01] impactful way the more power you have
[19:03] ultimately in that environment so I know
[19:06] very often we'll hear from clients who
[19:08] are frustrated around the politics at
[19:10] work and not recognizing how much agency
[19:14] they have in impacting those politics
[19:17] it's easier to complain or to recognize
[19:19] the politics and as we talked about
[19:22] before we have a cognitive bias about
[19:24] how much we really have an impact in our
[19:26] own behaviors and actions around the
[19:28] politics around around us yeah that's
[19:30] really brilliantly put and you know
[19:32] first I I I want to validate people who
[19:35] who are complaining about this I mean
[19:37] these struggles are real being part of
[19:39] an organization where your CEO is really
[19:41] cynical is painful and I don't blame
[19:44] people for being upset by that at all
[19:47] but the question is where do we go from
[19:49] here as you're saying one option is just
[19:52] find work elsewhere and cynical
[19:54] organizations do tend to shed more
[19:56] people quickly and have great turnover
[19:59] than less cynical
[20:00] organizations but if you're not going to
[20:02] do that then as you're saying another
[20:05] take on this maybe a more hopeful take
[20:08] is to say well what do I have power over
[20:11] it's almost like that stoic philosophy
[20:13] as well of hey there are things that I
[20:16] can't control and there are things that
[20:17] I can so what's in that second bucket
[20:20] and how can I be a leader not maybe
[20:23] companywide but at least with the people
[20:26] directly next to me and as you're saying
[20:29] part of it is embracing our own power in
[20:32] our research my student Eric neyman and
[20:36] I we gave people a sense of their power
[20:39] we taught some people but not others
[20:42] that if you trust others they're more
[20:44] likely to become trustworthy right that
[20:47] if you take that leap of faith other
[20:50] people are more likely to earn your
[20:52] trust because they see that you see the
[20:55] best in them and they want to live up to
[20:58] that positive expectation when we taught
[21:01] people that versus people who we didn't
[21:03] teach that to those people were more
[21:06] willing to trust others with money and
[21:09] in conversation and when people were
[21:11] more trusting both with money and in
[21:14] conversation guess what happened other
[21:16] people actually did become more
[21:18] trustworthy so I think that you're
[21:21] exactly right that this is a great space
[21:24] workplaces are a great space in which to
[21:27] understand in Embrace and own our own
[21:30] influence over other people and try to
[21:33] use that as a Force for good now
[21:35] recognizing that it is contagious how
[21:39] can we self- diagnose or recognize that
[21:41] we might be moving from skepticism to
[21:43] cynicism what are the telltale signs
[21:47] yeah it's a great question and I think
[21:49] that there's a couple of places that I
[21:50] would go with that one is what are your
[21:54] instinctual responses to other people
[21:57] when somebody's says something kind to
[21:59] you do you accept that compliment do you
[22:03] feel good or do you start to feel
[22:06] suspicious when you think about why
[22:08] somebody is doing something do you start
[22:11] with the assumption that they're doing
[22:12] it for themselves or do you maybe
[22:14] believe that they're doing it for others
[22:16] so I say interrogating our own reactions
[22:19] to other people is a good place to start
[22:22] but hey that could be skepticism too it
[22:24] could be that you think somebody's
[22:25] selfish because they've acted selfishly
[22:28] the ENT entire time you've known them
[22:30] that's evidence-based a second step that
[22:32] you might take is saying well my
[22:35] reactions to people are kind of
[22:36] negative uh I'm I'm sort of suspecting
[22:39] them I'm doubting them what evidence do
[22:42] I have and to test your beliefs against
[22:46] the evidence you have so if you're
[22:47] saying wow this person said something
[22:49] nice but I bet they're just trying to
[22:50] get on my good side they're buttering me
[22:52] up because they're going to ask me for a
[22:53] favor if you then hit the pause button
[22:56] and say well what evidence am I basing
[22:59] that claim on and your response is
[23:01] actually I've never met this person in
[23:02] my life I have no idea why I I'm
[23:04] thinking this it just feels right then
[23:07] that's evidence that you might be
[23:09] shifting from skepticism to cynicism so
[23:11] I would say the two-step internal audit
[23:14] would be one am I defaulting to a
[23:16] negative view of people and two am I
[23:19] doing that in the absence of compelling
[23:22] evidence if that's the case then that
[23:25] sounds more like cynicism and maybe it
[23:27] could be something that that worth
[23:29] working on now with this rise in
[23:31] cynicism are there demographic shifts
[23:34] that are happening are there parts of
[23:36] the US uh are there age groups
[23:39] Generations are there shifts where it's
[23:41] happening more frequently in your
[23:42] observation around cynicism or is it
[23:45] basically generalized across the
[23:47] population it's both so within almost
[23:51] every demographic you can measure
[23:53] cynicism Is On The Rise um so there's
[23:56] not really demographics that are very
[23:58] safe from this trend but there are
[24:00] demographics that are being more
[24:02] impacted AJ if I might might I ask you
[24:05] to guess if if you had to Hazard a guess
[24:08] what group of people what demographic do
[24:11] you think would be rising in terms of
[24:13] cynicism just based on your intuitions
[24:15] yeah you know it's curious as I was
[24:17] sharing with a close friend of mine that
[24:19] I was doing this interview about
[24:21] cynicism uh he remarked that he had
[24:23] noticed since I relocated from the
[24:25] Midwest to to LA Los Angeles that there
[24:28] had been arise and some cynical behavior
[24:31] in myself and the way that I describe
[24:32] driving in traffic and the way that I
[24:34] describe people and I thought it was
[24:36] really interesting I I haven't been back
[24:38] to the Midwest as much as I would like
[24:40] but um it just made me think huh is
[24:42] there you know a shift in larger cities
[24:44] where we're closer on top of each other
[24:46] as there been shift around the pandemic
[24:48] and coming out of that
[24:49] isolation um so instinctually I would
[24:52] say larger cities and in the pandemic
[24:54] definitely having a a forcing function
[24:56] on the way we interact with each other
[24:58] coming out of the isolation but curious
[25:00] to see what the research says yeah
[25:02] that's a really interesting intuition
[25:04] and as far as I know the data haven't
[25:06] been broken down by Urban versus rural
[25:09] versus Suburban settings but that's that
[25:12] I I actually share your intuition and I
[25:14] think that well just as a person who
[25:16] lives in a big city and deals with
[25:18] traffic a lot there's no better cynicism
[25:21] Factory than a traffic jam for sure um I
[25:25] think that the pandemic certainly also
[25:27] had a really
[25:28] uh detrimental effect on our on our
[25:32] faith in others while ironically
[25:34] increasing people's kindness I asked a
[25:37] thousand Americans recently what do you
[25:39] think the pandemic did to humankindness
[25:42] and more than half of them by a lot
[25:44] thought that it had decreased
[25:46] humankindness but the data suggests that
[25:48] actually people volunteered more donated
[25:51] more to charity and help strangers much
[25:53] more during the pandemic than they did
[25:55] in the years before so it's interesting
[25:58] the pandemic made us Kinder and also
[26:00] made us doubt our kindness more it's
[26:03] ironically but from a demographic
[26:05] perspective the biggest Trend that we
[26:07] see is actually generational so younger
[26:11] people are the most cynical and in fact
[26:14] a a survey that came out a few years ago
[26:17] found that among uh 12th graders so
[26:19] people who are just entering
[26:21] adulthood less than 20% believed that
[26:25] most people can be trusted so it's you
[26:27] know it basically generat Z is the least
[26:30] trusting on record in the United States
[26:33] which to me is very troubling because if
[26:35] younger people who are coming up and are
[26:37] going to be entering leadership and
[26:39] guiding our culture in the decades to
[26:41] come if they're more cynical than
[26:43] anybody else I I I I really worry about
[26:45] that uh in terms of our shared future my
[26:49] sister-in-law is Jen Z and what I've
[26:52] recognized in my interactions with her
[26:54] is the decline of nuance and the rise of
[26:57] short form so I love the podcast because
[27:00] we can get into the data we can talk
[27:02] about all these edge cases and really
[27:05] not only share our own experience but
[27:06] then look at Trends but often times the
[27:09] media that we're consuming influences us
[27:13] far more than we recognize and we've
[27:14] talked about the rise of social media
[27:16] you know that generation lives on social
[27:18] media more than anyone else they're
[27:21] consuming content that is short and
[27:23] Punchy and attention grabbing and this
[27:25] negativity bias is the easiest way to
[27:28] grab someone's attention and I I saw a
[27:30] recent chart on on Twitter about just
[27:33] sentiment in the news and its decline
[27:37] basically mirroring what you were saying
[27:39] the decline in in optimism and the rise
[27:41] in cynicism here in the US starting
[27:44] around the 70s where headlines and any
[27:47] consumption of the media is
[27:49] overwhelmingly negative and then you
[27:51] break that down into bite-sized pieces
[27:53] where we're viewing just very very small
[27:56] nuggets and headlines not even getting
[27:58] into the Nuance of what's going on
[28:00] behind the scenes that could be causing
[28:01] this and I'm not surprised to to see
[28:04] that generational shift towards a rise
[28:06] in cynicism at the Gen Z level you know
[28:09] it's a great insight and we talk so much
[28:13] these days about the effect that social
[28:16] media is having on young people's mental
[28:18] health their sense of themselves I think
[28:21] we talk a lot less but it's but should
[28:23] talk more about what it's doing to their
[28:25] sense about other people and their faith
[28:27] in Humanity more generally so there's
[28:31] this really and you you insightfully
[28:34] call this negativity bias that's exactly
[28:36] what psychologists call it we do as a
[28:39] species tend to focus more on negative
[28:41] information than positive information
[28:43] and you can see right why that would be
[28:45] a good idea from an evolutionary
[28:47] perspective right I mean it's safe to
[28:49] ignore a sunset it's not safe to ignore
[28:52] a tsunami right I mean we we are
[28:54] oriented towards threat for very good
[28:56] reason but but the media ecosystem and
[29:00] Industry and what's often called These
[29:03] Days the outrage industrial complex
[29:05] really takes that to another level
[29:07] basically feeding this this tendency
[29:10] that we have and accelerating it to a to
[29:14] a degree that's probably unprecedented
[29:16] in history there's a name for this
[29:18] called mean world syndrome and the idea
[29:21] is that the more media that people
[29:24] consume the worse they think people are
[29:26] the more dangerous they think people are
[29:29] there was an incredible version of this
[29:30] when you know when I was growing up in
[29:32] the 1980s and 90s a million years ago
[29:35] there were there was this big scare
[29:37] about kidnapping you know I don't know
[29:39] if you remember this but you would get
[29:41] milk and on the back of a milk carton
[29:43] there would be pictures of kids who had
[29:45] been kidnapped and there was all these
[29:48] stories about kidnapping in the news and
[29:52] at some point in the 1980s there was a
[29:54] survey where people were asked how many
[29:56] children do you think are kidnapped in
[29:58] in the United States each year and
[29:59] people thought that 50,000 children a
[30:02] year were being kidnapped that's in it's
[30:04] insane that the actual number was less
[30:07] than a hundred so people had an estimate
[30:09] of kidnapping that was hundreds of times
[30:12] higher than it really was now of course
[30:14] any kidnapping is a tragic occurrence
[30:16] and deserves to be covered in the news
[30:19] one could argue but the coverage was
[30:22] warping people's view of what the world
[30:25] was like in this incredibly systematic
[30:28] and extreme way and I think now on
[30:31] social media we see that even more
[30:33] because as you say it's these 30 second
[30:36] black and white just bits of information
[30:40] decontextualized that can just push our
[30:42] buttons and do in a way that you know
[30:45] again make us feel bad about ourselves
[30:46] but also convince us the world is this
[30:49] mean and horrible Place well the book is
[30:52] Hope right so I I do want to spend the
[30:55] last bit of time here at least becoming
[30:58] hopeful or helping those in our audience
[30:59] who felt all of these pressures both at
[31:01] work and in the media we've talked about
[31:03] this in on past shows as well
[31:05] influencing us and recognizing that we
[31:07] don't want to be cynical understanding
[31:09] the health impacts it has to isolate
[31:11] ourselves to view and distrust others
[31:13] and to shy away from social interaction
[31:16] so how can we instill hope in our
[31:18] audience and where are you basing your
[31:21] hope in oh wow those are those are great
[31:23] questions uh I as I said embarked on
[31:26] this journey for for the book because I
[31:28] was feeling really cynical during the
[31:30] pandemic and the more I explored
[31:32] cynicism the more I realized that we
[31:35] really don't like feeling it it's not a
[31:38] fun way to feel as you said it's
[31:40] terrible for our health it's terrible
[31:42] for our relationships it's terrible for
[31:44] our workplaces and I would say it's
[31:45] terrible for if I may even our democracy
[31:48] when we stop having faith that our
[31:50] culture and Society can
[31:52] function and I think yet we still think
[31:57] we need it
[31:58] we think that cynicism will make us
[32:00] smarter we think that it it will make us
[32:02] safer and we think that it's moral the
[32:05] more that I read the more I realized
[32:07] that that's none of those things are
[32:09] true either a and and I know that sounds
[32:12] even less hopeful we we're addicted to
[32:15] this way of thinking that's awful but I
[32:16] think that that that in this case
[32:18] knowledge can be power because at the
[32:22] same time as we glamorize cynicism way
[32:24] more than we should or have to we think
[32:28] that hope is silly or naive or toxic
[32:32] even but it's not the data on Hope are
[32:36] very hopeful it turns out that and so
[32:39] let's define hope first of all because I
[32:41] want to differentiate it from optimism
[32:44] optimism is the idea that things will go
[32:46] well and it might be putting on
[32:48] rose-colored glasses ignoring our
[32:50] problems sticking our head in the sand
[32:53] all of those I think are fair critiques
[32:54] of optimism hope is not the same hope is
[32:58] the idea that things could go better and
[33:01] that we have agency in improving how
[33:05] things turn out you see the difference
[33:07] between those right one leads to one can
[33:10] lead to complacency the other is really
[33:13] action oriented and it turns out that
[33:16] this feeling of Hope if cynicism is one
[33:18] of the worst things for our health hope
[33:20] is one of the best because it gives us a
[33:23] sense of empowerment and allows us to
[33:25] still Challenge and look at real
[33:28] problems in our lives and in the world
[33:31] not look away from them but but feel
[33:32] like what can I do here the same way we
[33:35] were talking about doing that in the
[33:36] workplace we can do that in the rest of
[33:39] our lives so it turns out that when we
[33:41] can tap into hope we a feel a lot more
[33:46] mentally healthier physically healthier
[33:48] more resilient in the face of
[33:50] difficulties and more willing to
[33:53] challenge the status quo and to take
[33:55] action that makes positive change again
[33:57] at the level of our relationships at the
[34:00] level of our organizations and even
[34:02] things like social movements and and
[34:04] fighting for causes that we believe in I
[34:07] know what I love about the book is
[34:10] there's personal experience yourself
[34:12] making changes to combat the cynicism
[34:15] you are feeling I'd love to share a few
[34:17] of those ways that our audience can
[34:19] start to beat back their own cynicism
[34:22] and I'm also very curious how we deal
[34:25] with those in our life in relationships
[34:27] we want to keep
[34:28] where we're recognizing that they're
[34:30] becoming cynical so we've touched on how
[34:32] contagious it is we may have family
[34:34] members we may have close friends who
[34:37] have been influenced by media influenced
[34:39] by certain situations catastrophes in
[34:41] their own life that have led to arise in
[34:43] sinicism and how do we also deal with
[34:46] that in relationships that we want to
[34:47] keep I think it's so important and
[34:51] there's a number of steps that we can
[34:53] take maybe I can start AJ with what we
[34:55] can do for ourselves to cultivate hope
[34:57] and then we can talk about how we can
[34:59] bring that to the people in our lives
[35:01] that we care about so when focusing on
[35:04] ourselves the two steps that I've been
[35:06] trying to take and you asked what brings
[35:08] me hope and I say the science of Hope
[35:10] brings me some hope but it's not enough
[35:12] to just read papers right that's uh
[35:15] that's that's my nerdy way of spending
[35:17] time but you have to you have to act
[35:19] differently so I think that the steps
[35:21] that I take are one think differently
[35:25] and two act differently so thinking
[35:28] differently involves some of what we've
[35:30] already talked about being skeptical of
[35:33] our cynicism asking what evidence am I
[35:36] basing my views on and also being simply
[35:39] aware that hey my mind and the human
[35:42] mind in
[35:43] general are kind of prone to focus on
[35:46] the negative so maybe if I'm thinking
[35:48] negatively just doubting that kind of
[35:50] factchecking those
[35:52] feelings that's sort of Step One in
[35:55] building another mindset step two is
[35:57] what we've also been talking about
[35:59] understanding and embracing our power
[36:01] and saying well the way that I act is
[36:03] going to change what other people do so
[36:06] once we can adopt th that mindset we can
[36:09] start to test it out in our real lives
[36:12] so two ways of doing that one is to what
[36:16] I call Trust loudly right so that means
[36:19] giving people your
[36:22] faith taking a chance on them but not
[36:24] just doing it telling them hey you know
[36:27] what what I'm gonna be vulnerable here
[36:29] I'm going to tell you something that I'm
[36:31] struggling with I'm going to give you a
[36:33] new assignment at work that that is kind
[36:36] of difficult or I'm going to you know
[36:39] I'm I'm gonna go ahead and and loan you
[36:41] this money but I'm doing it because I
[36:44] believe in you I really think that you
[36:46] will step up here when you trust loudly
[36:48] when you show other people your trust
[36:50] and when you're explicit about it that
[36:53] reciprocity is supercharged the
[36:55] likelihood that they'll come back and
[36:57] actually want to earn that trust
[36:59] increases so trusting loudly is one
[37:02] behavior that I try to engage in a lot
[37:05] and then the other is collecting more
[37:07] social data I told you about social
[37:09] shark attacks earlier and and how how
[37:13] neurotic I am about connecting with
[37:15] people and this was even worse coming
[37:17] out of the pandemic so on a business
[37:20] trip that I was taking to North Carolina
[37:22] I decided every chance I have to talk
[37:25] with a stranger I'm going to take it and
[37:27] I was terrified that this was going to
[37:30] crash and burn but I said before I do it
[37:33] let me write what my predictions are so
[37:36] I wrote down what how I thought the
[37:38] average interaction would go on a scale
[37:40] of one to 10 one very negative to 10
[37:42] very positive and then I had eight
[37:45] conversations with strangers over a
[37:47] two-day span and I tested my real
[37:50] experiences against my expectations and
[37:53] over and over again I found that people
[37:56] and the and the conversations were so
[37:58] much more pleasant than I had realized
[38:00] and that collection of new data again
[38:03] thinking like a scientist and then
[38:04] acting like a scientist has been so
[38:06] helpful for me because if you're like
[38:10] most people which I think I am my
[38:12] assumptions are too
[38:14] negative and if that's true of you then
[38:16] when you collect new data pleasant
[38:18] surprises will be everywhere people will
[38:20] turn out to be better than you think so
[38:22] those two steps have helped me a lot and
[38:25] you know I offer them to readers that in
[38:27] the hopes that they can help them too
[38:29] yeah I know our xfactor accelerator
[38:31] members as they go through the program
[38:34] get missions that bring them out of
[38:37] their comfort zone and it's fascinating
[38:39] to watch them literally their demeanor
[38:42] and their energy changes as they move
[38:45] through the program as they start to
[38:46] beat back some of those negative
[38:48] assumptions they had around how
[38:50] interactions would go would this
[38:51] communication strategy work with the
[38:53] stranger would someone actually want to
[38:55] build trust skip over small talk go go
[38:57] deep in an immediate conversation and
[39:00] recognizing that once you start to
[39:02] realize all these negative walls and
[39:04] limiting beliefs you put on socializing
[39:06] have isolated you and how much control
[39:08] you have in it it becomes exciting then
[39:10] to go out with an encounter accounting
[39:12] Mission and look for all the
[39:14] opportunities you have to socialize
[39:17] exactly yeah what I'm concerned about
[39:20] and I know some in our audience have now
[39:22] had corrosion or distrust rise in their
[39:25] relationship with science through the
[39:27] pandemic MC and you know talking about
[39:30] science people all over the Spectrum on
[39:32] their views around science as someone
[39:35] who studied science in undergrad and
[39:36] grad school what I saw during the
[39:38] pandemic was just science being science
[39:41] recognizing that we're we're seeking the
[39:43] truth there's mistakes along the way
[39:44] we're Gathering data around a new event
[39:47] and trying our best to make sense of it
[39:49] but there was going to be mistakes and
[39:51] mishaps in hearing your view of science
[39:54] for our audience who are skeptical or
[39:56] maybe even IAL about science how should
[39:59] they view data collection and the way
[40:02] that they look at what they're
[40:04] experiencing but then also what science
[40:06] is sharing with them around their
[40:07] cynicism you know science I think was
[40:11] trusted maybe almost too much at one
[40:14] point um by the public there was a sense
[40:17] that whatever a scientist said was that
[40:20] was it it's carved in stone and science
[40:22] is basically a set of facts that are
[40:25] Eternal and that's never how scientists
[40:28] ourselves have viewed it but I think
[40:30] that in bringing scientific insights to
[40:32] the public they're too often brought to
[40:35] this black and white place like you were
[40:36] talking about where it's just true or
[40:38] it's just untrue and if the idea is that
[40:41] a scientific finding needs to be true
[40:43] forever then anytime that that finding
[40:46] turns out to be revised or not
[40:49] replicated we can lose all faith in the
[40:52] scientific system I try to be really
[40:55] upfront with readers that science is a
[40:57] living thing it is a process of testing
[41:02] hypothesizing revising being wrong and
[41:05] then trying to be a little bit less
[41:06] wrong over the years and so I think that
[41:10] viewed in that way we have more
[41:12] skepticism about each scientific finding
[41:16] but maybe less cynicism if one finding
[41:19] turns out to be uh not replicated or if
[41:22] it turns out to be wrong later on and in
[41:25] in my book and in every book that I
[41:28] write I actually uh have an appendix
[41:31] called evaluating the evidence where I
[41:34] have another scientist read all the big
[41:36] claims in my book and then do an
[41:39] analysis of their own to say how
[41:41] reliable are these claims and I offer
[41:43] readers a chance hey look through the
[41:46] data that I've seen and here's how
[41:48] confident I am in each of the claims
[41:50] that I made and some of them are based
[41:53] on Decades of evidence some of them are
[41:55] based on exciting new science but it's
[41:57] going to be a while before we're really
[41:59] secure in this so take those with a
[42:01] grain of salt and I try to write in a
[42:03] way that makes that clear I'll say wow
[42:05] this is really exciting but it's new
[42:07] we're going to need more research before
[42:09] we know so I think that my move towards
[42:12] this has always just been transparency I
[42:14] think if people if the public thought of
[42:16] science the way that we think of science
[42:19] they would be more skeptical and less
[42:21] cynical and maybe skepticism here is a
[42:24] good thing I love that thank you so much
[42:26] for stopping by and and Sharing Hope for
[42:29] cynic as well as your own personal
[42:31] experiences as I know many in our
[42:33] audience myself included have shared
[42:35] them over the course of coming out of
[42:36] this pandemic certainly where can our
[42:38] audience find out more about the science
[42:40] that you do and your book yeah I'm I'm
[42:43] pretty easy to find so my lab at
[42:45] Stanford is the Stanford social
[42:47] Neuroscience lab and that's where you
[42:49] can find all of our empirical work um
[42:52] and then my new book hope for cynic is
[42:55] available wherever you can find them uh
[42:58] and yeah those would be the two places I
[43:00] would I would Point people thank you for
[43:02] joining us today thanks so much this was
[43:04] really fun
[43:07] [Music]
