[00:00] so welcome to the show Thomas great to
[00:01] have you thank you for having me I'm
[00:02] excited for our chat and what inspired
[00:04] you to write the Perfection trap have
[00:06] you had your own struggles with
[00:07] perfectionism yeah definitely I would I
[00:10] think I'm a perfectionist um I meet all
[00:12] the criteria and I certainly score
[00:14] highly on the measures that we use it's
[00:17] something that has certainly helped me
[00:18] in certain respects right it's driven me
[00:20] forward it's made me successful I
[00:23] suppose but it also has a lot of baggage
[00:25] and that baggage comes in the way of a
[00:27] lot of worry brooding rumination about
[00:30] little mistakes and over time that can
[00:32] be quite exhausting and certainly that
[00:35] was the case for me I experienced a lot
[00:37] of mental struggles and burnout and that
[00:39] was the moment when I realized perhaps
[00:41] this is something that could be holding
[00:43] me back wanted to learn about more in my
[00:45] own life but also in the life of other
[00:48] people too because it was something I
[00:49] saw all around me so that was the
[00:50] impetus to study a little bit more do
[00:52] the research try to find out what this
[00:54] thing is and what it does to us uh so I
[00:57] did the Ted Talk did the book and that's
[01:00] why I'm speaking to you and what I loved
[01:02] about the book is there's so many great
[01:03] examples of really successful people
[01:06] people we look up to who outwardly feel
[01:09] and seem like they have it together but
[01:11] internally they are perfectionists and
[01:14] driven by that perfectionism to success
[01:16] but also dealing with the struggles and
[01:18] the downsides of that perfectionism and
[01:20] you have this great example of Steve
[01:21] Jobs who a lot of people look up to
[01:25] immense success with apple but the
[01:26] people that worked with him the people
[01:28] that loved him in relationships with him
[01:30] they saw and felt all the downsides of
[01:32] his perfectionism yeah absolutely jobs
[01:34] is an a really interesting case study in
[01:38] perfectionism extremely high achiever I
[01:40] mean there's no doubt about that one of
[01:41] the most successful business people uh
[01:44] ever however despite all the Innovations
[01:47] and building Apple's fortunes back up
[01:50] from where it was before he came it was
[01:53] a story of a of a guy who's left a
[01:56] trail of uh destruction in his wake
[02:00] testimony of his colleagues is uh very
[02:02] Vivid about his exceptionally high
[02:04] standards and how if he didn't meet them
[02:06] that was a big problem how he himself
[02:09] was never satisfied it had to be better
[02:11] it had to be improved and uh and so not
[02:15] only did that take a toll on himself but
[02:17] it also took a toll on the people uh he
[02:19] worked with so it's a very inter Cas imp
[02:21] perfectionism it's it's one way to do it
[02:25] certainly uh but I would I would note
[02:27] that it's not the only way to do it but
[02:29] uh job is an example of where
[02:30] perfectionism can uh can certainly lead
[02:32] to exceptional performance the term
[02:35] perfectionism seemed when I was growing
[02:38] up more of a
[02:41] compulsive obsessive compulsive behavior
[02:43] of chasing that Perfection where now it
[02:46] seems as if it's almost normalized in
[02:51] our lives we see this popping up many
[02:54] times we certainly have had a few
[02:56] perfectionist experts on the show so
[03:00] where do you see this going and why do
[03:02] you think it has now went from a
[03:05] pathology to something that is more
[03:07] normalized in our everyday lives that's
[03:10] a really great question John I think
[03:12] there's a lot to unpack there it's a
[03:14] it's a big question and it's certainly
[03:16] true that if you go back through the
[03:18] decades and even centuries you written
[03:20] records of perfection and chasing
[03:22] Perfection and the and inherent dangers
[03:25] that come with it and how it can lead to
[03:26] quite an empty existence where we never
[03:28] feel satisfied because there's always
[03:29] some more but at the same time when we
[03:31] slip up and make mistakes we go in on
[03:32] ourselves so a lot of popular fiction
[03:35] poetry philosophy Through the Ages has
[03:38] warned of the dangers of chasing
[03:41] Perfection and that was also the case
[03:43] even in recent history I think not that
[03:46] long ago even even in living memory we
[03:48] can look back to postwar consensus the
[03:50] New Deal the affluent society whereas
[03:52] the middle classes right it was the
[03:54] average Joe that was celebrated you
[03:56] think The Flintstones The Jetsons it
[03:58] wasn't the the perfect unicorn Achievers
[04:00] you know these were the heroes in that
[04:02] era and that was because we lived in a
[04:04] different economy where we were growing
[04:05] the economy for the betterment of
[04:07] everybody we're trying to lift people up
[04:09] through uh economic progress and and the
[04:12] proceeds of the growth were shared well
[04:14] reasonably shared anyway and that led to
[04:16] a great deal of lifting of people up the
[04:19] social hierarchy I think today we have a
[04:22] very different Society very different
[04:24] economy the Apex of society is narrowed
[04:26] as we've focused on the winners and the
[04:28] only people with platform these days not
[04:30] the a Jo's they're the CEOs you know the
[04:33] sports stars these are the not
[04:35] impossible of course but
[04:37] improbable Le High Achievers that that
[04:40] we put on a pedestal and say that's what
[04:41] we need to emulate and I think that's
[04:43] why we're seeing today Perfection turn
[04:45] into something that isn't the dangerous
[04:48] warning uh that we had in the past but
[04:50] rather the desirable and obtainable
[04:54] ideal of course it isn't those things
[04:57] and it's an exhausting Chase to try to
[05:00] meet what are exceptionally improbable
[05:02] outcomes but nevertheless that's what we
[05:04] celebrate and I think that's why we see
[05:06] a lot of perfectionism these days and we
[05:08] look at perfectionism in a positive
[05:09] light and now unpacking perfectionism
[05:12] you talk about three dimensions of
[05:13] perfectionism in the book that I think
[05:15] will add some great context for the
[05:17] audience to sort of self assess and I
[05:19] know there's a self assessment in the
[05:20] book as well but to really understand
[05:22] the different sides of perfectionism
[05:24] because I think we all kind of have
[05:26] preconceived notions of what you mean by
[05:28] perfectionism and and I was really
[05:29] inspired to learn the three dimensions
[05:31] and see myself in a couple of them yeah
[05:34] that's the interesting thing about
[05:36] perfectionism really there's um there's
[05:38] there's a lot of nuance to it and we
[05:40] know this because we've spoken to
[05:42] hundreds and hundreds of perfectionistic
[05:44] people both in the clinical settings and
[05:46] also in community settings in general
[05:48] research what you find time and time
[05:49] again is that perfectionism is a is a
[05:52] multi-dimensional characteristic so it
[05:54] isn't just about high self-set standards
[05:56] and goals need to be perfect that's one
[05:59] aspect of perfection we call that
[06:00] self-oriented perfectionism comes from
[06:02] we been um sort quintessential over stri
[06:05] I oppose the workoholic you might you
[06:06] might think of in your mind's eye it's
[06:09] more than that it's more than self-set
[06:11] standards it's got a social element too
[06:14] perfectionism operates in a vacuum and
[06:16] just as we expect ourselves to be
[06:17] perfect we also think that other people
[06:19] have those same expectations of us too
[06:21] so uh socially prescrib Perfection
[06:24] another aspect of perfectionism which is
[06:26] this the perception that we think other
[06:28] people expect to to be perfect and
[06:30] nothing but perfect and when we slipped
[06:31] up they're waiting to judge us
[06:34] negatively and the third element of
[06:35] perfection see time and time again in
[06:37] perfectionist at people it's not just
[06:39] high self-set goals it's not just
[06:41] expectations of perfection we feel that
[06:43] placed on us but it's also expectation
[06:45] Perfection that we put on other people
[06:47] so I expect you to be perfect and if
[06:48] you're not I'm going to let you know
[06:49] right that's only fair because I expect
[06:51] myself to be perfect so you're going to
[06:52] need to be perfect too so these three
[06:55] elements of perfection are really
[06:56] interesting they each sit on spectrums
[06:57] and we can be high on self and maybe a
[06:59] little bit in the middle of social maybe
[07:01] quite low on another and all sorts of
[07:02] different constellations so there's no
[07:04] sort of one size fits all but
[07:06] perfectionism is a relational trait and
[07:08] as a consequence they're are important
[07:09] social elements to consider alongside
[07:11] that those high self-set expectations
[07:14] and I think going along with that the
[07:16] internalized where you're looking at
[07:18] yourself and self assessing
[07:20] perfectionism uh we often feel but when
[07:22] we encounter others who are striving
[07:25] because of so how others judge them or
[07:28] because of how or they feel others
[07:31] should be behaving and judging others
[07:32] around this Perfection that can be very
[07:35] difficult to encounter in Social
[07:36] relationships romantic relationships or
[07:38] in business settings so when we look at
[07:41] not our self-prescribed self-oriented
[07:44] but instead we look at the social
[07:46] prescribed perfectionists how do we
[07:48] actually manage those relationships when
[07:51] they're so closely tied to how they're
[07:53] perceived by others and then also
[07:55] sometimes putting that judgment on us
[07:57] and in our actions and behaviors in our
[07:59] relationship yeah and this is why the
[08:01] testimony of going back to jobs is so
[08:04] interesting because uh Jobs's own
[08:07] perfectionism was projected outwards
[08:09] onto other people and and although it
[08:11] created a climate of exceptional
[08:13] performance it also created a climate of
[08:16] uh interpersonal hostility and um
[08:20] disharmony I think there's a balance to
[08:22] be to be struck and if you are in a a
[08:25] context of extreme standards and there's
[08:28] a sense and an or of perfection is
[08:30] expected upon you and there's a lot of
[08:31] othered perfectionists in your team
[08:33] where there's a lot of people who are
[08:35] putting excessive standards on onto you
[08:37] I think it's really super important that
[08:39] instead of letting that run its course
[08:40] and create all sorts of problems later
[08:42] down the road that we get on top of it
[08:44] and we talk about it and we actually
[08:46] break down those expectations and
[08:47] describe to people exactly why they're
[08:49] excessive uh and what our concerns are
[08:52] with these excessive Gos in terms of the
[08:54] quality of the the thing that we're
[08:55] creating whether it be piece of code
[08:58] whether it be a product
[08:59] uh whether it be a new innovation
[09:01] whatever it is part of this process is
[09:03] that things are going to need to get
[09:05] done they can never be perfect and so
[09:08] it's really important to have honest
[09:10] conversations about what's good enough
[09:12] uh and I think if we can do that as
[09:14] teams we can break down those high and
[09:16] excessive standards I think can be more
[09:17] Innovative uh not less and as I
[09:19] mentioned jobs' way of doing things is
[09:22] one way to do it but it's not the only
[09:24] way you can have the same high quality
[09:27] outcomes but with much less competition
[09:29] stress and pressure and that's the
[09:31] balance we need to strike I think those
[09:33] expectations are often not communicated
[09:37] outside of action so I think of a lot of
[09:39] our clients who are nice guys and gals
[09:42] who enter into these covert contracts
[09:45] where they behave in a certain way in
[09:47] their mind the perfect way they're
[09:49] seeking perfection in their
[09:50] relationships how they show up how they
[09:52] serve others people pleasing and in turn
[09:55] they're often let down by others
[09:56] behaviors when they have not actually
[09:59] communicated any expectations around
[10:01] what they want to see in that
[10:02] relationship they've just behaved in a
[10:04] manner that their hoping will be
[10:05] mirrored back to them reflected back to
[10:07] them by their actions and that lack of
[10:10] communication of expectations can lead
[10:12] to that harsh criticism of others and
[10:14] then in turn criticism of yourself well
[10:16] and also internal resentment as well
[10:19] right because if you not express the
[10:21] expectations in the first place then
[10:22] it's probably likely you're not going to
[10:23] express the disapproval subsequent to
[10:26] that and so you go in on yourself and
[10:28] start to present that to think these
[10:30] people are not not working hard enough
[10:32] and they don't understand the process
[10:35] and what's needed and all the rest of it
[10:36] you can really start to see how
[10:37] internally this can breed a lot of
[10:39] negative thoughts about the workplace in
[10:41] the team so yeah I mean I can't I
[10:43] couldn't be more emphasize that it's so
[10:46] so important to have clear L of
[10:47] communication both at the beginning and
[10:48] in the middle at the end and we have to
[10:50] create cultures where that's where
[10:51] that's encouraged right where people
[10:53] feel safe to express what they think is
[10:57] necessary and needed Within teams and
[10:59] that that that is cre for all sorts of
[11:01] ways but the leadership has to lead by
[11:03] example in that respect and and not only
[11:06] make it clear what's needed but also
[11:07] when they H when they've made mistakes
[11:09] or when we've hit setbacks or when
[11:10] things aren't going quite to plan that
[11:12] we talk about that we're open about it
[11:13] even laugh and joke about it so that our
[11:16] whole team comes with us and they
[11:18] themselves feel emboldened to speak up
[11:20] to contribute to share ideas it's so so
[11:23] important to have clear communication
[11:25] within the workplace because that's the
[11:27] most efficient way to get things done so
[11:29] if you've recognized that you struggle
[11:31] in communication of these expectations
[11:33] on that front what are some of the first
[11:34] steps you can take taking responsibility
[11:36] and then starting to break through that
[11:38] communication barrier that you've
[11:39] created the very first thing if you if
[11:42] you struggle with excessively high
[11:44] standards in your of a perfectionistic
[11:46] mindset where it's got to be 100%
[11:50] perfect every single time otherwise it
[11:52] won't go out you've got to First
[11:54] recognize that's going to hold you back
[11:56] that kind of thing is going to hold you
[11:57] back way more it's going to push you
[11:58] forward right is that's a block and
[12:00] impediment to progress that way of
[12:01] thinking that's the first thing and tell
[12:04] yourself every single day that there are
[12:06] hundreds and hundreds of good enough
[12:08] ways to get this product out or this
[12:09] piece of code finished or whatever it is
[12:11] that you're doing in your workplace but
[12:13] there is no one perfect way so that
[12:16] instantly brings down that level of
[12:18] expectation to a point at which we we
[12:20] feel more comfortable to let things go
[12:22] even if it's not quite of a perfect uh
[12:26] level and then the conversation becomes
[12:28] a different with our colleagues and
[12:29] teams it becomes okay why do we need
[12:32] this to be before we can let it go and
[12:35] it's important to give your colleagues
[12:36] input into that process you know where
[12:39] what does this what does a finished
[12:40] product look like and and get an
[12:42] agreement a consensus and then go about
[12:46] uh working on it uh and so that for me
[12:48] is the most important thing you've got
[12:49] to recognize first and foremost that
[12:51] perfe is going to block your progress
[12:52] way more than it's going to push you
[12:54] forward relaxing those um uh Ambitions
[12:58] and making sure sure your whole team is
[13:00] involved in the decision making and
[13:02] looking at it through the lens of Social
[13:04] and romantic relationships obviously
[13:06] when we talk about teams and workplaces
[13:09] there's cultural impacts coming from
[13:10] leadership there's hierarchy but when we
[13:12] look at our social ties our romantic
[13:14] ties oftentimes we're putting this
[13:16] pressure on our partner our friends
[13:18] without even recognizing it again
[13:20] through the covert contract where we
[13:23] have expectations we're behaving in a
[13:24] certain Manner and those expectations
[13:26] are just internal and then when that
[13:28] person
[13:29] lets us down doesn't show up or act or
[13:31] behave the way that we had expected that
[13:33] self-judgment can turn in towards
[13:35] resentment towards the other person so
[13:37] if you find yourself in that
[13:39] situation what can you do to open those
[13:41] lines of Communications on the social
[13:43] and romantic front to break free of that
[13:46] perfectionism that's holding you back
[13:47] from those social ties yeah I mean I
[13:49] think I think it's so important I think
[13:51] this this idea of being cover is the
[13:55] issue um when everything is internalized
[13:57] and nothing is expressed out outside of
[13:59] ourselves and in communication with the
[14:01] people who who we place expectations on
[14:04] it's that isn't sustainable and over the
[14:06] long and over the long run there going
[14:07] to you're going to run into all sorts of
[14:09] difficulties both within yourself but
[14:11] also in the
[14:12] relationship the most difficult thing
[14:14] with perfectionistic people and I I
[14:16] myself have experienced this is that we
[14:20] believe deeply that perfectionism is
[14:23] what marks us as a hyper competent hyper
[14:26] functioning uh person um it's what gives
[14:29] us a sense of competence and
[14:32] identity and so as a consequence we
[14:35] don't feel internally that what we think
[14:38] and how we're approaching
[14:40] relationships is problematic we don't
[14:42] see it that way right and and that's why
[14:45] in the book I really I want to emphasize
[14:48] that actually we that's the first step
[14:50] in turning the corner on this and
[14:51] recognizing is actually this way of
[14:54] thinking is the problem it's it's not
[14:56] holding us up in the world it whenever
[14:59] and this you know when everything feels
[15:01] like it's coming down and people dislike
[15:02] us and we move our way ourselves away
[15:04] from people because um whenever we push
[15:07] ourselves into social situation we feel
[15:08] threatened or we might be criticized or
[15:09] judged negatively this creates a lot of
[15:11] social disconnection a lot of loneliness
[15:14] and then we resent people for that
[15:16] because they just don't understand us
[15:17] when what we haven't recognized is it's
[15:19] our perfectionism that's that's creating
[15:21] those problems in the first place so I
[15:23] think it's so so important for us to
[15:25] recognize first and foremost
[15:27] perfectionism the data is clear doesn't
[15:29] lead to high performance so if you
[15:30] impose it on yourself and people in the
[15:32] workplace you're not going to do any
[15:33] better it's related to social
[15:35] disconnection and loneliness and social
[15:38] disharmony so if we take it into our
[15:40] relationships it's also going to create
[15:42] problems uh there and thirdly for
[15:44] ourselves for our own mental health it's
[15:47] highly correlated with problematic
[15:49] mental health out things like low mood
[15:50] depression and anxiety and so it's not
[15:53] even good for us so we have to be really
[15:55] clear this is not an optimal way of
[15:57] thinking it's going to to create a lot
[15:59] of problems in all sorts of spheres of
[16:01] our lives and so it's so important we
[16:03] turn our back on it and as as I
[16:05] mentioned it's so the first step is to
[16:08] recalibrate our expectations both on
[16:10] ourselves and on other people whether
[16:12] they be in the workplace in our
[16:12] relationships recognize that people are
[16:14] imperfect we're live in an imperfect
[16:16] world there's going to be times when
[16:17] they piss us off there's going to be
[16:18] times when when they don't they don't
[16:20] meet us where we think they should meet
[16:22] us and that's okay that's whole part and
[16:25] parcel of being a human being right
[16:27] everybody's fallible we're all exhausted
[16:28] and we all make mistakes and once we can
[16:30] start to recognize that we can start to
[16:33] see the common humanity and people
[16:35] around us in ourselves and there's
[16:37] something incredibly liberating about
[16:39] that and something incredibly connecting
[16:40] about that because once we once we
[16:42] recognize we're imperfect then we can
[16:43] start to interact and have relationships
[16:45] on a much deeper level in the book um
[16:48] you brought up the multi-dimensional
[16:51] perfectionism scale and I think that
[16:55] would be a lot of fun to discuss with
[16:56] our audience for them they're going to
[16:59] want to investigate that for themselves
[17:01] so if you'd like to discuss that for
[17:03] them yeah so this is how we measure
[17:05] perfectionism and this is how we measure
[17:07] Mo almost all personality
[17:09] characteristics Perfection is no
[17:10] different what we do is we typically um
[17:12] ask questions on a scale that's kind of
[17:15] a
[17:15] questionnaire um so for a selfo of
[17:18] perfectionism for instance one of the
[17:19] items would be I strive to be perfect in
[17:21] everything I do now you can agree or
[17:23] disagree with that you strongly agree
[17:25] you'll score high on the scale if you
[17:27] strongly disagree you'll score low and
[17:29] if you sort yes sometimes yes sometimes
[17:30] no you'll score somewhere in the
[17:32] middle and for socially prescribed
[17:34] perfectionism we have items that other
[17:35] people expect me to be perfect and
[17:37] nothing but perfect again agree disagree
[17:39] for other other oriented perfectionism
[17:42] an example I them might be I expect
[17:44] nothing lesson Perfection from those
[17:46] around me right again agree slightly
[17:48] disagree and we aggregate the items that
[17:50] we ask on this questionnaire and what we
[17:52] have is a is a sliding scale so some
[17:55] people will be high on the Spectrum some
[17:56] people will be low some people will be
[17:58] in the middle this is the way by the way
[18:00] we should think about perfectionism not
[18:01] as a uh black or white yes you're a
[18:04] perfectionist no you're not
[18:05] perfectionist but are you more or less
[18:07] perfectionistic in these
[18:09] areas uh and with that tool we can do
[18:11] some really cool things we can get a
[18:12] mean which tells us gives us some
[18:14] information about whether these things
[18:15] are changing which is interesting
[18:17] information but it also gives us a
[18:19] standard deviation gives us some
[18:20] variance which means we can look at to
[18:22] see what how how if someone's higher on
[18:24] a scale of self oriented whether they
[18:26] are tend to be higher on no performance
[18:28] outcomes or relationship outcomes or
[18:30] whatever it might be uh so this is a
[18:32] really useful tool uh in my book I
[18:34] provide some uh example items that
[18:37] people can have a go self-reflect on
[18:39] where they sit on those three elements
[18:41] of perfectionism and then encourage some
[18:43] self-reflection there because I think
[18:44] that's a really useful tool to see where
[18:46] we are on that Spectrum whe we're
[18:47] tending higher or lower and if we're
[18:50] tending higher the book explains more
[18:53] about what each of these are and we can
[18:55] emply those uh experiences in our own
[18:57] life to get a much better understanding
[18:59] of how perfectionistic we are so I'd
[19:01] definitely encourage if you do grab hold
[19:02] of the book to have a little go at that
[19:04] because I think it gives you a good idea
[19:05] of where you sit and you talk about this
[19:08] idea that a lot of us are tied to our
[19:11] identity of being a perfectionist and we
[19:13] see examples of other people reaching
[19:15] success Steve Jobs being one of them we
[19:17] also may have experienced an upbringing
[19:19] that demanded that of us so when I think
[19:23] to my own upbringing and this idea that
[19:25] you bring up in the book of good enough
[19:27] that was unacceptable in my household
[19:30] like once I showed aptitude in school
[19:33] good enough a b B+ was not acceptable at
[19:37] the dinner table and meeting those
[19:39] expectations of my family to reach
[19:41] academic success became a big part of my
[19:44] identity and hardwired into the way that
[19:46] I approached everything and I know
[19:47] Johnny's smiling and laughing because a
[19:49] lot of times even within the company you
[19:51] know I don't settle for good enough and
[19:53] it could lead to frustrations with other
[19:55] team members so to those in the audience
[19:57] who have been steeped in this mindset of
[20:01] perfection based on how they were raised
[20:03] by their parents siblings and
[20:05] potentially through school as well you
[20:07] know how can we start to take on this
[20:10] idea of good enough and actually find it
[20:13] acceptable when maybe you were raised in
[20:16] an environment where it was completely
[20:17] unacceptable to express good enough just
[20:19] for the humor sake of this conversation
[20:22] AJ is correct in that in my observations
[20:25] a lot of aspects of the company but I
[20:27] also had to reflect at my kitchen table
[20:31] uh growing up as well and I loathed
[20:36] school so much because at the time I was
[20:40] much more into skateboarding and music
[20:43] and I was obsessed with music even at a
[20:46] very early age my dad played in bands
[20:48] growing up so it that had taken my
[20:51] attention and it it got apparent to my
[20:55] dad that trying to nudge me into good
[20:58] grades wasn't going to work because I
[21:01] had completely checked out the
[21:04] conversation at our table was just like
[21:06] listen if you're getting seized I'm good
[21:09] I'm not gonna bother you let this go so
[21:12] of course AJ to speaking about that I
[21:15] had to reflect and and that's why I was
[21:17] laughing but that's the thing about
[21:18] academics is it's often structured in a
[21:21] way that Perfection is the goal and it
[21:24] is a measurable outcome right so you can
[21:27] get a perfect you can get 100 zero wrong
[21:31] and all of my upbringing was geared
[21:33] around pursuing that 100 in any study or
[21:36] any subject that I encountered and
[21:39] anything less was deemed not good enough
[21:42] and certainly unacceptable at the dinner
[21:44] table Johnny's upbringing around
[21:46] creativity and art you know that's a
[21:49] totally different Dynamic where it's
[21:51] very hard to measure perfection in art
[21:53] right it's something that's completely
[21:55] subjective and someone might give it a
[21:57] low score and say I don't like that
[21:58] piece of art and someone might actually
[22:00] love that piece of art so those are like
[22:03] the dichotomy that we struggle with
[22:05] internally in the in the company and
[22:07] reflecting in our upbringing there's
[22:09] there is a lot of difference there
[22:11] absolutely I mean it's so interesting
[22:13] you both share Divergent experiences
[22:15] there I mean you're absolutely right AJ
[22:18] uh quantity metrics these are like
[22:20] Kryptonite to perfectionism uh because
[22:23] there is an objective 100% And the
[22:27] problem is that anything short of that
[22:29] which by the way 99% of the time we will
[22:31] probably get somewhere short of that
[22:33] it's very unlikely that in every single
[22:35] assessment we're going to absolutely now
[22:37] which leads to a lot of disappointments
[22:40] and if if the if the only thing that
[22:42] matters is the is the perfect test score
[22:45] then the life is going to be quite
[22:47] disappointing most of the time and the
[22:49] problem is with perfectionism even if
[22:50] you do get 100% there's always going to
[22:52] be another test around the corner right
[22:54] so it's not even if you can enjoy it
[22:56] yeah it's not even if you can enjoy that
[22:58] because and in anything you put more
[23:00] pressure on yourself because the better
[23:01] you do now the better you're expected to
[23:03] do the next time right so it's it's
[23:06] exhausting to to live but it certainly
[23:09] instills a Perfection a perfectionistic
[23:11] kind of thinking uh which absolutely can
[23:14] carry through we see this in literature
[23:15] all the time high pressurized High
[23:16] expected environments very cor strongly
[23:19] correlated with later life perfectionist
[23:21] I would say though we really there's an
[23:23] interesting uh second piece to this and
[23:25] there That's genetics uh and we know
[23:28] that Perfection is about 30 40% genetic
[23:30] just like any other personality
[23:31] characteristic so we have to be a bit
[23:33] careful because it could be that our
[23:35] parents
[23:37] perfectionism is what's driving the
[23:39] behaviors which then is is what we're
[23:41] interpreting as the parenting practices
[23:43] are actually just come through genetics
[23:46] right where so Johnny described there uh
[23:48] an environment that teally wasn't as
[23:50] perfectionistic as AJ which but that may
[23:52] be because your parents didn't have as
[23:54] much perfectionism and therefore they
[23:56] passed on less perfectionism and so can
[23:58] you see the intergenerational
[24:00] transmission isn't just about
[24:01] socialization but it's also about uh
[24:04] genetics and we have to be aware of that
[24:05] because why that's important is I think
[24:09] there's something comforting about all
[24:10] this in that because there's this
[24:12] limited control that we have over uh the
[24:15] way we turn out my mom is a classic
[24:18] perfectionist and the reason why I have
[24:20] this these anxieties I think is because
[24:22] of that I think might passed on through
[24:24] through my mother's line and I don't
[24:25] know I think there's something quite
[24:26] comforting about that like you know it
[24:28] this these feelings I feel at some level
[24:30] aren't my fault and I can take a lot of
[24:32] solace in that now not nevertheless
[24:34] having said all that there is no doubt
[24:35] that there is a socialization piece this
[24:37] 34% leaves a lot for the environment to
[24:39] explain so your question was what do we
[24:41] do well I think the the answer to that
[24:45] is in a bit about what I've already said
[24:48] about recognizing perfectionism is the
[24:49] issue but also recognizing that there's
[24:52] nothing wrong inherently with wanting to
[24:54] do better right wanting to grow the
[24:56] growth mindset for example is part of
[24:58] your upbringing AJ right you know keep
[25:01] doing better keep learning keep
[25:02] developing improving all the rest of it
[25:04] nothing wrong with that at all but we
[25:06] have to recognize that abundance
[25:09] enoughness is antithetical to growth
[25:12] right once we reach a point you so
[25:16] basically we cannot be we cannot feel
[25:18] abundant we cannot feel complete we
[25:19] cannot feel enough and under conditions
[25:22] of growth because growth requires
[25:24] scarcity it requires lack it requires us
[25:26] being in some way less than all the time
[25:29] for us to have something to improve upon
[25:31] and so I think what's really important
[25:33] is we recognize yes grow important but
[25:35] to a point right and we have to
[25:37] recognize that we get to a point in our
[25:39] career in our lives where we've done
[25:41] remarkable things where we've succeeded
[25:43] where we've reach the goals that we set
[25:44] ourselves and then it has to switch
[25:47] where's the meaning where's the purpose
[25:49] where's the why now okay I've climbed
[25:51] the ladder I've done the hard yards I'm
[25:54] going to be living in complete misery
[25:56] for the rest of my life I'll continue to
[25:57] keep pushing myself more and more and
[25:59] more I need to recognize that it's not
[26:02] always about growth sometimes we can we
[26:05] can level off right sometimes we can
[26:06] reach a point of of of stasis that we're
[26:09] comfortable with and then we can pursue
[26:12] what I think brings us a lot of joy you
[26:15] know what is the meaning in our work
[26:16] what are we trying to leave in the world
[26:17] for other people to use and appreciate
[26:19] and learn from right what's our bigger
[26:21] purpose so I I I think that would be my
[26:24] main message I I don't think there's
[26:25] anything wrong particularly in the early
[26:27] stages of learning learning and pushing
[26:28] ourselves a little bit and wanting to
[26:29] develop but we also as human beings have
[26:33] to recognize there are limits to the
[26:34] amount that we can grow and sometimes we
[26:37] have done really well we need to enjoy
[26:39] that and and think on a bit of a higher
[26:41] plane so that's kind of where I am with
[26:43] that yeah it's funny looking back at my
[26:46] upbringing so you know one of my things
[26:49] after school was to just seek a little
[26:52] break mentally emotionally and as an
[26:54] introvert and I would say just let me
[26:56] relax a little while
[26:58] and that was very frustrating to my dad
[27:01] so he actually made me a t-shirt that
[27:03] said just let me relax a while and I got
[27:06] to wear that t-shirt growing up because
[27:08] it became a moment for him to to scold
[27:10] me tried me to go back to school work go
[27:13] back to learning go back to growing in
[27:16] that
[27:16] capacity and of course now hearing that
[27:19] that there's the piece genetic there's
[27:20] the piece to the
[27:21] socialization um I'm concerned as a
[27:24] potentially becoming a parent how is
[27:26] that going to show up in in the way that
[27:28] I choose to raise my kids and I'm
[27:31] curious recognizing that about your mom
[27:33] and and your genetics how you approach
[27:36] potentially passing on that
[27:38] perfectionism yeah I think you got to
[27:39] break the intergenerational chain at
[27:41] some point and recognize that like there
[27:44] that you got to think a bit smarter just
[27:46] zoom out you know all the data that's
[27:48] coming through now for example are on
[27:50] the 4- day work week which is staggering
[27:54] that you you actually get more
[27:55] productivity for less time invested
[27:58] why because more doesn't always mean
[27:59] better you know it's like there's a zone
[28:03] of declining and diminishing returns to
[28:05] every unit of extra effort that we put
[28:07] in Beyond a certain threshold because
[28:10] we're sacrificing vitalizing activities
[28:12] time of friends time of our family you
[28:15] know rest good diet and sleep you know
[28:17] all these things are so so important to
[28:18] productivity at work and if we just keep
[28:20] pushing us more and more and more what
[28:21] we'll find is actually perform worse uh
[28:24] in the long run so I think we just need
[28:26] to think a bit smarter than this kind of
[28:27] just pure work EIC work e it work EIC
[28:30] and so for for our children I think the
[28:32] message really is that you know simple
[28:34] want to work hard uh there's something
[28:37] intrinsically satisfying about working
[28:39] and and getting somewhere you know
[28:41] achieving growing and all the rest of it
[28:43] those things are really important
[28:45] priorities to instill but at the same
[28:48] time it's really so important for
[28:50] parents to be consistent in the way that
[28:52] they um treat their children in terms of
[28:55] love and affection so when they have
[28:56] them well praise the effort use that as
[28:59] a reinforcement for the Learning and
[29:01] Development and growth that they've
[29:02] invested themselves in but when they
[29:04] haven't quite them so well let say they
[29:05] haven't naed that test and they're
[29:06] really disappointed this is where you
[29:09] know parenting comes into action um and
[29:13] and I think good parenting that has the
[29:15] right values would treat kids in exactly
[29:17] the same way right give them hug tell
[29:20] them it's fine you know this isn't
[29:22] indictment on you doesn't say anything
[29:23] about how much your teacher likes you or
[29:24] how much your parents love you or
[29:25] whatever it's just one
[29:28] disappointing test result I many other
[29:30] test results that you're going to get
[29:31] right so it and it may not have just
[29:34] suited your skill set on the particular
[29:35] day or maybe you just had a bad night's
[29:37] sleep but it's fine you know we love you
[29:39] anyway and that consistency of approval
[29:42] is is so so so important because once
[29:44] you start to subtly defer approval on
[29:47] the expectation of more bigger better
[29:50] and higher um performance then what that
[29:53] teaches young people isn't only really
[29:54] worth something as a person when they've
[29:57] succeed eded and that when they have
[29:58] failed that there that's something that
[30:00] says something about them and that is
[30:03] the that is the short path to
[30:04] perfectionism so consistency of level
[30:07] approval is so so important nothing
[30:09] wrong with having high standards but you
[30:10] have to be consistent when they've done
[30:12] well when they haven't done quite so
[30:14] well this treatment is the same and
[30:16] finally just quickly discern this
[30:17] because I think it's so so important
[30:18] kids are very impressionable creatures
[30:21] so if we do have perfectionism we carry
[30:23] that into into the parenting domain that
[30:26] could also so you know they might learn
[30:28] those anxious behaviors or the aversion
[30:30] to failure so humanize failure humanize
[30:33] mistakes if you've had a bad day let
[30:35] them know talk around the dinner table
[30:36] laugh about it make a joke about it
[30:38] normalize these experiences so so
[30:40] important young people see that um and
[30:44] uh and that is also a good way to to
[30:46] stop perfectionism creeping him it's a
[30:48] big point because children model
[30:51] everything they will model your
[30:53] behaviors they will model uh how you
[30:57] deal with conflict they will model how
[31:00] you uh interact with other people a lot
[31:04] of it it's not even on a conscious level
[31:06] they're just absorbing and and it's all
[31:10] imprinting on them uh so those
[31:13] conversations about those behaviors are
[31:16] going to be incredibly important uh
[31:18] specifically even being able to laugh at
[31:21] those behaviors at the dinner table so
[31:23] that those those children know that it's
[31:26] okay
[31:27] to laugh at these behaviors because
[31:30] perfectionism isn't the best way to go
[31:33] and that they are going to come up short
[31:36] and that that's
[31:38] okay I think it's also about I mean the
[31:42] the thing is with failure so interesting
[31:44] we we have aversion to it in in modern
[31:46] society because of the consequences of
[31:48] slipping up or making mistake especially
[31:50] in an age of social media can be blown
[31:52] up all over the place like I understand
[31:54] the fear but it's kind of crazy because
[31:57] failure is just regression to the mean
[31:59] like we're going to fail way more than
[32:01] we
[32:02] succeed it's like it's 49 of the 50
[32:06] people that take up wimon are going to
[32:08] lose a game it's the same with the Tour
[32:10] of France you know 249 of the 250 are
[32:13] not going to win the general
[32:14] classification like most people were at
[32:16] some stage for sure and so that's why
[32:20] it's so important to praise reward the
[32:21] times we do succeed because those are
[32:23] really really crucial parts of learning
[32:25] PR for a child but also at the same time
[32:27] not over catastrophized in those moments
[32:29] of fair because they are not objective
[32:31] catastrophes they just having a bad day
[32:33] and I think that that messaging is so uh
[32:37] important uh and that and if you know
[32:39] young people will listen they will learn
[32:41] and hopefully that will kind of mitigate
[32:44] that fear of failure that a lot of young
[32:45] people experienc in these days well
[32:47] we've certainly talked a lot about
[32:49] social media on the show the impact that
[32:51] it has the comparison driven highlight
[32:53] reels that create this fun house mirr uh
[32:56] around us you know on every platform and
[32:59] it just seems like in order now to even
[33:01] get visibility you have to have larger
[33:03] and larger Feats of success and another
[33:06] part of that social media experience
[33:07] again is there is a scoreboard so it's
[33:10] Quantified it's measurable how many
[33:12] likes am I getting how many friends and
[33:14] followers am I adding so there's that
[33:16] added degree of comparison Beyond just
[33:18] the imagery and the videos that we're
[33:20] seeing and consuming but then also the
[33:22] way social media ranks force ranks us
[33:24] with leaderboard and scoring the
[33:26] internet doesn't forget either your
[33:28] friends might forget that you fell down
[33:30] a few stairs and laughed it off when you
[33:33] guys went up for drinks but that clip of
[33:35] that is now living on the internet
[33:38] recognizing all the downsides of
[33:41] perfectionism what do you recommend we
[33:43] do in our approach to technology and
[33:45] engaging in the digital world which
[33:47] seems to be so likely to cause a lot of
[33:51] this perfectionism frustration fear
[33:52] failure comparison well you know it's
[33:55] curious you bring that up because I
[33:57] remember I'm old enough to remember the
[33:59] the very start of social media Facebook
[34:01] was a um college campus uh social
[34:04] networking tour and I was one of the
[34:06] first users to take it up uh at the very
[34:09] beginning and it's funny you make sure
[34:11] like you know goofing up and all that
[34:13] sort of stuff because that was what it
[34:14] was for like I just remember we would
[34:17] have nights out as college students of
[34:18] course you do things that college
[34:19] students do and people would take photos
[34:22] and the next morning you'd log on with
[34:23] trepidation of what you've been tagged
[34:25] in like because that was the whole point
[34:28] of it it was about cementing offline
[34:30] relationships like uh documenting
[34:33] offline uh scrapes and cers that you
[34:36] would have with your friends right and
[34:38] so it's interesting bring that up
[34:40] because today it's almost the reverse
[34:42] right we we log on interpretation of
[34:44] what we haven't been tagged in like as
[34:46] if we're like not not we don't matter or
[34:49] we're not recognize that people aren't
[34:50] giving us fire emojis or mentions or
[34:52] shares and all the rest of it it's a
[34:54] completely different to to what it used
[34:55] to be and I think but I think think
[34:57] there's something there the answer lies
[34:59] in that that difference because I think
[35:00] if we can reconnect to what it was
[35:02] originally devised for right to cement
[35:05] offline relationship bring people to
[35:06] give on common
[35:08] interests grow
[35:10] communities then it's an incredibly
[35:12] powerful tool not just in the workplace
[35:15] not just in our social World in our
[35:17] family friends relationships and all the
[35:18] rest of it it has so much power to do
[35:20] such tremendous good but it isn't used
[35:23] for that it's an advertising device
[35:25] right and it's used to Crea or a
[35:27] discontent into which captures our
[35:29] attention and spending because that's
[35:30] where the revenues are nothing wrong
[35:31] with that by the way that's that's just
[35:33] what those companies doing what they
[35:34] should be doing in this economy but I
[35:36] think it's important for the user to
[35:37] recognize that and to try to get take it
[35:41] back to what it used to be and I do see
[35:42] signs of that b way and young people's
[35:44] interaction with social media they're
[35:45] posting less interestingly and they're
[35:48] also using the messaging feature more
[35:50] right to to communicate with each other
[35:52] I think there are some signs that we're
[35:53] turning in the right direction with that
[35:56] so so it's not about throwing the baby
[35:58] off the bo it's not about saying let's
[35:59] just get rid of the platforms let's ban
[36:01] them whatever I actually think there's
[36:02] tremendous power but it's about using
[36:04] them for the right reasons and that goes
[36:07] for social media just as it does for AI
[36:08] and all the other technologies that
[36:10] coming down the road well I can
[36:11] certainly remember back then we weren't
[36:14] thinking that our future employers were
[36:17] going to do a social media
[36:20] audit of who we are be uh even before we
[36:24] get in the room or our interviewer ask
[36:27] us some questions about our social media
[36:30] presence and not to mention default
[36:31] settings were private to people you knew
[36:34] right so anything that was being shared
[36:36] was not posted publicly whereas now in
[36:39] order for them to capture our attention
[36:41] everything is set to public to gain as
[36:45] much time on these apps as humanly
[36:47] possible and I know for myself I've
[36:50] posted less and in turn I've logged on
[36:52] less and I focus more on the in-person
[36:55] connections versus substituting it with
[36:58] the digital I think it's a a much bigger
[37:01] ask to to post more of my flops and
[37:03] failures on social recognizing some of
[37:07] the the comments Etc we see and feel
[37:09] from from just being a public figure
[37:11] online it is very interesting to see
[37:14] generationally how they're now
[37:16] approaching gen Z gen Alpha is
[37:18] approaching these online experiences
[37:20] whereas we were first to be introduced
[37:22] to it excited to post everything now
[37:25] we're seeing this version back to more
[37:27] privacy concern about what is going to
[37:30] live online forever yeah I think we were
[37:32] catnip weren't we
[37:33] for for ripe for this kind of uh I want
[37:38] call it exploitation it's not as it's
[37:39] not as U aggressive as that but it I
[37:42] think you're right we were captured in
[37:43] it we were excited and we wanted to post
[37:45] all of ourselves and all of our lives
[37:46] and I think gen Z are coming through and
[37:49] going I'm not sure
[37:51] actually that's quite the right approach
[37:55] and they're taking I think a slightly I
[37:57] would say healthier approach to it and
[37:59] which is great I think that that's how
[38:01] these things will change from the ground
[38:02] up so it's nice to see that well think
[38:04] about it they have to deal with that in
[38:07] in school I didn't have to go to Junior
[38:09] High dreading what social media was
[38:12] going to say about me and the following
[38:14] me around from school to home into the
[38:18] my digital life where now they have to
[38:21] carry that around them as much as their
[38:24] backpack right it's never going away
[38:27] and they're constantly connected they
[38:29] learn much earlier the importance of
[38:32] that where uh you know that wasn't in
[38:35] our lives at that time certainly not
[38:36] mine as a gen xer yeah I 100% agree I
[38:40] had hadn't thought about it that way but
[38:41] it's you're absolutely right yeah there
[38:43] is there is more awareness just because
[38:46] they're the first generation I suppose
[38:47] still growing up just immersed in it so
[38:50] of course they're going to be more
[38:51] educated than we were coming
[38:54] through exactly
[38:57] looking at the title of the book The
[38:58] Perfection trap are there signs and
[39:00] signals for us to recognize that we're
[39:03] falling into this trap you know we
[39:05] talked a lot about how it can help us
[39:06] we've also talked a lot about how it can
[39:08] hurt us so how do we recognize that it's
[39:10] actually a trap and what can we start to
[39:13] do after that to get our way out of this
[39:15] trap perfectionists are really harshly
[39:17] self-critical when they've messed up and
[39:19] made mistakes that's because it's
[39:20] revealed to the world what they deep
[39:22] down are trying to hide which is an
[39:24] exhaustible fallible human being
[39:26] underneath the surface but there's also
[39:29] an important second piece to this that
[39:31] perfectionist when they have succeeded
[39:33] as was kind of alluded to earlier they
[39:35] can't enjoy that success because the
[39:36] better they do the better they expected
[39:38] to do so there's a very
[39:39] fleeting um uh satisfaction From Success
[39:44] that they feel because it's the next
[39:46] thing and the next thing and and if you
[39:48] feel caught in that bind which is
[39:50] essentially the Perfection trap right
[39:53] between uh trying to avoid failure so
[39:55] that people don't see your uh shameful
[39:58] imperfect Interiors but at the same time
[40:01] find it really difficult to enjoy any
[40:04] success then that's perfectionism right
[40:06] that's the Trap that we're locked inside
[40:08] it's an unwinable game because no matter
[40:10] what happens you're always going to feel
[40:13] discontented and as as I mentioned and I
[40:16] keep mentioning but is so important you
[40:17] first of all have to recognize it goes
[40:20] back to a journy was alluding to at the
[40:21] beginning you know this is a culturally
[40:23] acceptable trait this is something that
[40:24] I think we celebrate we have to we have
[40:26] to turn our back on that on that myth it
[40:29] it isn't something that pushes us
[40:30] forward the data is very clear it's not
[40:32] linked to success um and at the same
[40:34] time it carries all of these difficult
[40:36] mental health um complaints that are
[40:38] associated with being bound in this this
[40:41] trap this unwinable game and once we've
[40:44] done that we can start to think about
[40:46] living a little bit differently about
[40:47] chasing abundance in our lives about
[40:49] chasing enoughness call it you know the
[40:52] car my subtitle my book was remes biug
[40:55] Psych Carl rogers's quote said I am good
[40:59] enough if only I would be allowed to be
[41:02] so openly that's the challenge it's
[41:04] about opening ourselves up to the world
[41:07] imperfections and all being brave enough
[41:09] and vulnerable enough to to show up and
[41:12] make mistakes and do things badly just
[41:16] to suck at stuff essentially and go
[41:18] through the dis discomfort and the
[41:20] anxiety and the worry that that's going
[41:21] to engender because it's going to
[41:22] engender loads of it and while we're
[41:24] feeling those things to be kind to our
[41:27] vulnerability and self-compassion is so
[41:28] important in in turning the back in
[41:30] perfectionism so we made mistakes it's
[41:32] so important to be kind and important to
[41:34] be kind to other people well when
[41:36] they've made mistakes and this isn't
[41:38] going to be a linear process you know
[41:39] showing up being
[41:40] vulnerable uh making mistakes being
[41:43] self-compassionate learning developing
[41:45] growing saying rinse repeat going to
[41:47] encounter lots of setbacks we're going
[41:48] to put the mask Perfection back on and
[41:50] then we're going to feel bad about
[41:51] ourselves for not trying hard you know
[41:53] to break free from this and all the
[41:55] while we have to we have to just know
[41:57] that the journey is the most important
[41:58] thing we're Liv in a society it's
[41:59] probably going to make
[42:00] us put on the mask of perfection way
[42:03] more than we'd like to but that's okay
[42:06] um the point is that we're addressing it
[42:07] that we're recognizing it's a problem
[42:09] we're trying to live live differently
[42:11] and over time you become more
[42:12] comfortable you feel in yourself a sense
[42:15] of abundance a sense of completeness a
[42:16] sense of good enoughness and you
[42:18] experience the joy that comes with that
[42:20] in those moments and this isn't about
[42:23] living in a complete state of Ecstasy
[42:25] but it's about encountering more of that
[42:27] Joy on an never increasing basis that's
[42:30] the that's the purpose of trying to turn
[42:32] a back on um perfectionism and become
[42:34] more self aware and self-accepting um so
[42:38] those are the things I would recommend
[42:41] um and if you can apply them in yours
[42:43] then you it's like taking a sledgehammer
[42:45] to Perfection yeah I think going along
[42:47] with that obviously it's easy to
[42:49] celebrate our successes to look at those
[42:52] victories and give ourselves a pat on
[42:54] the back I think it's also important to
[42:56] give ourselves a pat on the back for all
[42:57] the failures and setbacks we've been
[42:59] through and sometimes just
[43:01] self-reflection you know I failed tests
[43:04] I didn't get good grades in certain
[43:05] subjects and I'm still here and I'm
[43:08] still going at it with that growth
[43:09] mindset I think often times if we just
[43:11] reflect on our wins again it creates
[43:13] that trap that we're talking about where
[43:16] then we try to avoid failure at all
[43:18] turns and sometimes that avoiding
[43:20] failure can actually lead to
[43:22] procrastination and I know that's one of
[43:24] the reason that some of our clients join
[43:26] our coaching programs and work with us
[43:28] is because that state of procrastination
[43:30] has had them so stuck and so far away
[43:33] from the growth mindset that they aspire
[43:35] to that they can't get themselves out of
[43:37] it learning growing that's difficult
[43:40] it's messy so those mistakes are going
[43:42] to happen and and they're it's not
[43:45] comfortable to do that around friends
[43:48] because their friends have a certain
[43:50] picture of them that they don't want to
[43:52] shatter or at least those expectations
[43:55] that they have put on themselves that
[43:56] they think from their friends but for
[43:59] our clients once they're in an
[44:01] accountability group where they're
[44:04] learning and outside of that comfort
[44:06] zone with lots of others they're happy
[44:09] to share the mistakes they're making and
[44:12] the progress that they're making because
[44:15] they're surrounded by people who are
[44:18] outside of their comfort zone and in any
[44:20] group we're going to have a certain
[44:22] small percentage of doers who are going
[44:24] to try to advance themselves or engage
[44:27] in things that they are P passionate
[44:29] about there's going to be maybe 10% more
[44:32] of that group who see those people
[44:34] taking action who are going to engage
[44:38] with those people because they're
[44:40] interested in that they don't know how
[44:42] to get started somebody is they're gonna
[44:44] help out but the rest of that group The
[44:47] 90% of that group is sitting in the
[44:51] stands afraid to participate afraid to
[44:55] get anything started
[44:56] for whatever their fear that they have
[44:58] to deal with but now in the
[45:01] accountability group everyone is in the
[45:03] arena everyone is participating everyone
[45:06] is making those mistakes and in fact
[45:09] they feel guilty not participating and
[45:11] not making those mistakes and they are
[45:14] encouraged then to put their best foot
[45:16] forward into the abyss uh to grow and I
[45:20] know in reading the book I think maybe
[45:23] even for some members of our audience
[45:24] they don't recognize the link between
[45:26] procrastination and perfectionism so if
[45:28] you can unpack that a little bit I think
[45:30] that'd be super helpful for those who
[45:31] are falling into the procrastination
[45:33] trap yeah and that's so interesting
[45:37] because you're absolutely right
[45:38] perfectionist fear failure to such an
[45:40] extent that they'll sabotage their
[45:42] chances of success the primary motive is
[45:44] to avoid the failure and the success is
[45:46] secondary it's much more important to
[45:48] save face and it's really interesting
[45:51] you say that about even with family like
[45:53] we have this idea in our Mind's Eye of
[45:55] what people expect us to look like or
[45:58] appear like or perform perform like and
[46:01] we don't want that that that image to be
[46:03] shattered and that's true we don't but
[46:06] it's in those moments where that image
[46:07] is shattered that we realize something
[46:09] very important and that and that's this
[46:13] that that image was nothing more than a
[46:15] prop for our self-esteem and a fragile
[46:17] prop at that that when that image is
[46:20] shattered for whatever reason whether we
[46:21] made a mistake whether we screwed up
[46:23] whether it just didn't pan out the way
[46:25] we planned cuz sometimes it's out of our
[46:26] control too by the way if things don't
[46:29] go well we realize something remarkably
[46:32] important about ourselves and if we can
[46:34] in that moment reflect and actually let
[46:37] those feelings in that's when we can
[46:39] start to become emboldened to make those
[46:42] mistakes again right to put ourselves in
[46:46] the uh I suppose uncomfortable position
[46:50] of maybe failing or maybe making a
[46:53] mistake on an Ever more regular basis
[46:55] because because we realize that that
[46:56] image is nothing more uh than a fragile
[46:59] prop so I think that's I think that's so
[47:00] important and like you say embold in
[47:03] people to do that is so important and
[47:05] again it goes back to this primary
[47:07] motive of the perfectionist to avoid
[47:08] failure and we see this time and time in
[47:10] the lab and we love to we we love to
[47:13] create situations of failure one because
[47:15] failure is normal natural happens a lot
[47:16] in everyday life but two because
[47:18] something remarkable happens when you
[47:19] put perfection in situation challenge of
[47:21] failure which is why it's so interesting
[47:23] to look at in the lab so we give uh
[47:25] people
[47:26] cognitive task puzzles uh we might give
[47:28] them athletic tasks like race against
[47:29] each other on on a cycling activity for
[47:33] example and what we'll do is no matter
[47:35] how well they perform on that task we'll
[47:37] all tell them that they failed right to
[47:39] meet a goal or they were the last of all
[47:41] competitors right it's a bit Noy but it
[47:44] does it does elicit a response and the
[47:47] response is what tells us about the
[47:49] perfectionistic mindset and their
[47:50] emotional and behavioral responses to
[47:53] that difficulty and two things
[47:56] happen that I think are really
[47:57] remarkable the perfectionist people
[47:59] people that score high in perfectionism
[48:00] when they encounter that failure their
[48:01] shame spikes way more than the shame
[48:03] spikes from people who are non-
[48:05] perfectionistic and shame is a
[48:06] self-conscious emotion that basically
[48:08] tells us we're rubbish uh that we F that
[48:11] something that's indictment on us uh
[48:13] they feel a lot of guilt so they worry
[48:14] about how it's looked to other people
[48:16] and whether other people that's still
[48:18] find them for worth while a human being
[48:20] but also they their pride in themselves
[48:23] declines
[48:24] plummets but it's not just emotional
[48:26] responses or interest it's also
[48:28] behavioral because if you suddenly say
[48:30] to them but don't worry about all of
[48:33] that faure it's okay you can redeem
[48:34] yourself because you can have another
[48:36] go on the second attempt after the first
[48:39] failure perfectionist people will remove
[48:41] themselves completely they'll just take
[48:43] themselves out of the activity their
[48:44] effort will plummet especially on
[48:45] athletic task when we do this in the lab
[48:46] time and time again right like they just
[48:48] don't try on the second attempt because
[48:50] the intensity of those emotions was so
[48:52] Fierce they don't want to feel that
[48:54] again they don't want to give all them M
[48:55] themselveses and still F and feel that
[48:57] feel even about themselves right so
[49:00] they just give up they just withdraw uh
[49:03] and that's not just about complete
[49:05] withdrawal it's also that's the that's
[49:07] the same mechanism that's occurring when
[49:08] it comes to procrastination too it's an
[49:10] anxiety management technique that they
[49:12] know this is challenging they know this
[49:13] is super super hard and the anxiety in
[49:16] that moment is so tough to deal with um
[49:19] head on we just take ourselves away
[49:21] right distract do something else for
[49:23] that brief moment we take ourselves away
[49:24] from that activity but of course even
[49:26] though in that moment we're not damaged
[49:27] by those emotions we
[49:29] are in the uh in the course of time
[49:32] damaged by them to an even greater
[49:33] extent um so obviously it's a
[49:35] non-optimal coping mechanism but it's
[49:37] the one that Perfection people use a lot
[49:39] because the primary motive is to avoid
[49:40] failure so procrastination is a is a
[49:43] Scourge uh for the perfectionist and
[49:45] it's so so important recognize what's
[49:47] going on underneath and it's always that
[49:48] aversion to failure so EMB embracing
[49:52] failure embracing the idea that we're
[49:54] going to make mistakes is so important
[49:55] when it comes to pulling for Perfection
[49:57] recognizing your own perfectionism what
[50:00] have you done personally to bring the
[50:01] good enough mindset into your life and
[50:03] into practice first of all I has to this
[50:06] is the first thing to say here is that
[50:09] um I'm fairly privileged position
[50:11] because I've climbed the academic ladder
[50:13] so in my profession I've gone as high as
[50:16] you probably could go I'm at a Russell
[50:17] gry institution as associate Pro
[50:19] probably a be for Professor soon this is
[50:22] equivalent to the ivy league for
[50:23] American listeners I have the pre of
[50:26] being able to step off the gas now and
[50:28] focus on things that bring me purpose
[50:30] and meaning which is what I'm doing and
[50:32] that's and that is helping me come
[50:33] through my own perfectionism it's
[50:35] helping me uh re realize and gain a
[50:39] sense of satisfaction in my
[50:40] accomplishments I could never do that it
[50:42] was I was unable to singly do that a few
[50:44] years ago but just being able to kind of
[50:47] take a more philosophical Outlook in
[50:49] life and realize that if you said to me
[50:52] at 19 this is where you'd be it would
[50:55] have just blown my mind and I think
[50:57] sometimes you have to hold on to that
[50:59] you have to realize we can do remarkable
[51:01] things and we have done remarkable
[51:02] things and and and at what point do you
[51:04] go okay I need to stop putting myself
[51:08] through the ringer for more and more and
[51:10] realize that in this moment what I've
[51:12] done is is is Way Beyond what I thought
[51:14] I was capable of and so what's my
[51:16] motivation now you know where can I gain
[51:19] joy in this existence while it's
[51:21] flipping the meaning of what I'm doing
[51:23] on his head from this idea of scary it
[51:25] that I lack something and I have to keep
[51:27] going to a mindset of abundance and
[51:29] plenty where I realize that I have these
[51:31] skills I have these capabilities and now
[51:34] my focus is on using them for a bigger
[51:37] purpose uh basically embracing the
[51:39] vocation of what I'm doing leaving
[51:41] something into in the world for other
[51:43] people to use and appreciate and enjoy
[51:45] and whether people like it whether
[51:46] people hate whether people are
[51:47] indifferent about it it doesn't matter
[51:49] what matters is that you are creating
[51:51] something for other people to use and
[51:52] that doesn't just have to be a book or a
[51:54] TED talk or whatever we do as a
[51:55] academics in the workplace you know it
[51:57] could be a project it could be a tool it
[51:59] could be a product that that is you
[52:02] strongly believe is is it will bring joy
[52:05] to people's life will enhance people's
[52:07] lives that's the motivation and once we
[52:09] can make that flip then it isn't about
[52:12] any more and more and more it's about uh
[52:15] learning to feel content in in uh in in
[52:19] what we are doing and and having left
[52:21] something in the world for other people
[52:22] to use that's a satisfaction that's the
[52:24] pride uh rather than the recognition
[52:26] from other people which is what drives
[52:28] perfectionist so for me in my own life
[52:31] that's the kind of practices that I've
[52:33] tried to employ um tried to see my my
[52:35] job and my life more as a vacation and
[52:37] throw my and throw my more of myself
[52:39] into outside activities community and
[52:41] with my family those are really
[52:43] important things but I but I go back to
[52:45] the caveat I made at the start you know
[52:47] I'm in a very privileged position where
[52:48] I can do these things because I've made
[52:50] it over a certain threshold which means
[52:54] it doesn't matter now like I've I've
[52:56] I've got I've got probation I'm going to
[52:59] be a full Prof I've I've met my career
[53:02] goals and so for those people coming up
[53:05] I would say there is still caution in
[53:08] perfectionism I would not embrace it to
[53:10] a full extent but I would also say that
[53:12] hard work striving conscientiousness and
[53:14] growth are really really important and
[53:16] yes it may be a bit
[53:17] uncomfortable but recognize that there
[53:19] will be a point where you will meet your
[53:21] goals and at that stage it's important
[53:24] to recognize that more and more and more
[53:26] growth is the way to discontent and
[53:28] misery and that at some point to
[53:29] recognize our achievements and strive
[53:31] for higher purpose instead so that's the
[53:33] advice I would thank you for that it's a
[53:35] beautiful place to end it wrap things up
[53:37] where can our audience find out more
[53:39] about the Perfection trap and the work
[53:41] that you do so if you Google Thomas
[53:43] curan the Perfection trap you will uh be
[53:46] given a list of links to my website
[53:49] social media uh accounts and also links
[53:51] to buy the book If you so wish so that's
[53:53] probably the best way to do it and do
[53:55] pick up a copy I love to hear from
[53:57] readers so please do let me know what
[53:59] you think thank you for joining us
[54:00] Thomas thank you for having
[54:03] [Music]
[54:12] me
