Listen to the full episode with Jay Heinrichs here.
Self-talk works best when you treat it as persuasion aimed at yourself. What if the key to change is persuasion? In this episode of The Art of Charm, AJ Harbinger and Johnny Dzubak sit down with Jay Heinrichs, bestselling author and renowned rhetoric expert, to look at how the ancient tools of persuasion can be turned inward. Drawing from Aristotle, Taylor Swift, and even personal injury, Jay shows how to reframe identity, build emotional endurance, and use the “dark art” of rhetoric for transformation. From redefining suffering as training to manipulating yourself in the service of your best self, this episode gives anyone stuck in self-doubt, burnout, or stagnation specific tools for the way they talk to themselves, along with a new way to tell the story of what comes next. The techniques below come straight from the conversation, and you can try them one at a time.
What to Listen For
[00:00:00] Persuading yourself, the ancient secret to real change
[00:05:06] The absurd goal that pulled Jay out of self-pity
[00:08:37] Aristotle’s identity formula of craft, caring, and cause
[00:12:41] How 300 painful shots became “training” through reframing
[00:17:44] The rhetorical way introverts fake extroversion
[00:19:07] A ninth-grade confidence habit that still works
[00:21:24] Why catchy rhythms can change how you think (and boost belief)
[00:24:35] Taylor Swift’s treadmill ritual and the power of prep
[00:27:44] Manipulating yourself without lying to yourself
[00:33:32] Donut or apple? How shame beats guilt for better choices
[00:36:47] The mindset shift before running a mountain
[00:41:58] Turning chaos into opportunity with kairos
[00:47:49] A quick way to bounce back from failure
[00:50:11] Why timing helped make Jay’s book a bestseller
Self-Talk That Actually Works, According to Jay Heinrichs
Most self-talk advice stops at “just think positive.” Jay gives listeners specific tools, borrowed from the ancient art of rhetoric, that we can aim at ourselves. Here are the ones he walks through, in his own framework. Each one is a place to start, so try one at a time and see which fits the moment you’re in. We’ll begin with who you are trying to become.
Persuade your best self, your Aristotelian soul
Jay explains that Aristotle separates your daily self, the one that eats donuts, feels sorry for itself, and carries all the bad habits, from your soul, which is your best self. It is what you wish you saw in the mirror. The aim of self-talk, as Jay describes it, is to prove to that ideal self that you are worthy of it. That is a real conversation, and Jay says that taking control of it, and letting your soul answer back, made all the difference for him.
Throw a hyperbole beyond yourself
Hyperbole comes from two Greek words meaning to throw beyond. Jay’s version was a goal so big it pulled him out of self-pity: running his age up a steep mountain in New Hampshire, something two physiologists had told him was probably impossible (at 00:07:50). He also planned for the chance of failing, because he knew that if he missed, he would fail up. A goal larger than the odds can work as a motivator, because even a miss can leave you better off than where you started.
Watch Jay explain it in this part of the episode.
Build your character with craft, caring, and cause
Jay translates Aristotle’s three parts of ideal character as craft, caring, and cause. Craft is your ability to solve a problem and know what you’re doing. Caring is the belief that your effort serves more than you, a kind of true friendship toward your audience. Cause is the set of shared values you live up to, the big “what is this really about.” Jay says the same three can persuade an employer or a future spouse, and he used them to convince his own soul that he was capable, committed, and working toward something bigger than the training.
Separate your wants from your needs
To get to know your soul, Jay suggests planning a vacation, which is a fun exercise because you aren’t suffering while you do it. Is it the bucket-list trip everyone else takes, or a place you would go that maybe no one else would? What you do to show off is a want. What your best self is after is a need, and telling them apart is one way to discover who your soul really is.
Reframe pain, mistakes, and failure
Understanding that how you define a moment shapes how you feel in it is the heart of this next group. Jay leans on reframing again and again, and these are the places he uses it most.
Reframe pain as a skill
Here is the clip where Jay tells the story of his hip treatment and the 300 shots.
How you define an issue is one of the most powerful tools in persuasion. Jay’s hip treatment began with a round of 300 shots, which he describes as sugar water meant to cause pain that floods the nerves, with fewer shots over the following weeks. It worked, and it also left him with painful daily physical therapy. He stopped calling it torture and called it suffering, then called it the beginning of his training. By repeating that to himself over and over, he says, the reframe worked, and it was one of the most powerful tools he used.
“Your ability to withstand pain or effort is the art of suffering. It’s an actual skill.”
Jay Heinrichs on The Art of Charm, Self-Talk That Actually Works | Jay Heinrichs (2025-07-15)
Reframe your mistakes in three moves
First, tell the truth about it before anybody else does, including to yourself. Second, talk about how it violated your otherwise high standards, temporarily. Third, switch the tense to the future, which Aristotle called deliberative rhetoric, and say how you’re going to keep it from happening again. Jay’s teenage son demonstrated it over an empty tube of toothpaste, and the result was a solved problem and a trip to the basement for a new tube.
Turn guilt into shame, in the moment
Jay says guilt is a kind of pain that tends to arrive after the fact, which is why it often works poorly. If you picture your soul as someone with you all the time, the emotion shifts toward embarrassment in front of an audience, an immediate sense that can be more powerful. Donut or apple, he asks his soul, and the answer comes quickly.
Move from victim to protagonist
AJ and Johnny frame self-persuasion as a move from the victim to the protagonist, and Jay agrees that rhetoric gives you agency. Before his experiment he was feeling terrible self-pity. Taking control of the conversation with his soul, and allowing it to answer back, got that out of his head.
“Rhetoric gives you agency.”
Jay Heinrichs on The Art of Charm, Self-Talk That Actually Works | Jay Heinrichs (2025-07-15)
Use rhythm, preparation, and names
Think of this group like exercise for your inner voice. Small, repeatable habits with words, sound, and preparation can add up.
Act as if something great just happened
As a ninth grader, Jay walked into every classroom smiling and chuckling as if someone had just told him a great joke. He doubts it won anyone over, but it worked on him, and he still walks into presentations that way. AJ and Johnny make the case that it can work on others too, since people tend to chase upbeat emotion, and that when self-doubt hits, we lose that upbeat feeling and it shows up in our words and delivery.
Repeat rhythmic phrases
Jay points to an ancient figure of speech, the paean, built on rhythmic short and long syllables. His examples are “Hit the road, Jack” and the potato chip line “Bet you can’t eat just one.” He says that if you repeat rhythmic lines often enough, you can change the reality in your head, and that the ancients deserve the credit for coming up with it first.
“You actually change the reality in your head if you repeat something often enough.”
Jay Heinrichs on The Art of Charm, Self-Talk That Actually Works | Jay Heinrichs (2025-07-15)
Prepare the way Taylor Swift does
Jay describes Taylor Swift’s discipline as part of her self-persuasion. To prepare for the Eras tour and its 44 songs, he says she ran on a treadmill while singing all 44 (at 00:26:04). He adds that her songs also trace a path from a heartbroken girl to the powerful woman she is today, which is the power of words changing how she feels about herself. Preparation and a story you tell about yourself can work together.
Watch Jay explain it in this part of the episode.
Name things to change how you see them
Jay moved his wake-up time to 4:30 in the morning (at 00:43:15) and named his private time zone “daylight saving,” a pun on his own name that he considered the wittiest thing he had ever done (at 00:43:35). He also gave each stretch of the mountain a word: relax, flow, focus, and dance. Naming can make you smile, and Jay notes that behaviorists call smiling cognitive ease, which can make a person more persuadable.
Watch Jay explain it in this part of the episode.
Use timing when life feels chaotic
Jay’s last set of tools comes from kairos, the art of timing and opportunity. The Romans reinterpreted the word as opportunas, which traces to the root for a door, so the idea is to see confusion as an opening rather than a whirlpool.
Draw your chaos on a page
For kairos, Jay suggests putting the pieces of your chaos on paper as objects, beams, or obstacles. It turns confusion, which can shut down the brain, into something more material. Erase the extras, widen the gaps, and look for a way through. He adds that you may find your drawing is rough, and it still helps.
Check the timing behind your past failures
Jay notes that limiting beliefs often come from failures in the past, and that one of the biggest causes of failure is timing. A brilliant idea, perfectly executed, can still land before the market is ready. So when you reframe a failure, he suggests asking whether the timing was right before you decide it says something about you.
Jay also reminds listeners that these tools are morally neutral, so it’s up to you to use them in a way you’ll be glad about the next morning.
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Curious about your influence level?
If this conversation got you wondering how your own influence shows up with other people, the Influence Index looks at that very question, and Jay’s tools are all about shaping it from the inside. The Influence Index is a 15-question quiz that scores five skills (read the signals, read the room, choose the moment, make it clear, follow through) out of 100. See what your Influence Index says.
Episode resources
How Ancient Rhetoric, Taylor Swift, and Your Own Soul Can Help You Change Your Life
Check in with AJ and Johnny!
