Wes Schaeffer | Crush It in Sales by Adopting this Bulletproof Mindset

In today’s episode, we cover the fundamentals of sales with Wes Schaeffer. Wes is the creator and owner of The Sales Whisperer, a sales training, marketing and consulting firm with an emphasis on CRM & email marketing software sales, support and optimization.

Sales skills are integral to our daily lives because we are regularly trying to solve problems and get other people to buy into our ideas, so what are the fundamentals of great salesmanship, how can you work to improve your sales skills, and why do you need to be a great listener to be great at sales?  

What to Listen For

  • How did Wes Schaeffer get started in sales – 3:00 
  • Do you need to be an entrepreneur to get the most out of life?
  • How should you think about your day job if you dream of being your own boss one day?
  • The biggest misconception about people who are not in sales – 8:10 
  • Why do we need some degree of sales skills to be successful in all areas of life and what can you do to improve yours?
  • The new ABC’s of sales – 12:35
  • What is the difference between influencing, persuading, and manipulating someone?
  • What do great sales people understand about the actual significance of the transaction stage in making a sale?
  • What is the difference between mediocre and great salesmanship?  – 24:00
  • What mistakes do new people in sales make to shoot themselves in the foot over the long term?
  • What should you be trying to identify when talking to a potential customer that will allow you to determine the perfect product or service to address their needs?
  • The two halves of listening – 33:40 
  • Why do people experience beginner’s luck?
  • What should you focus on when improving your sales skills?
  • What is the difference between education and training?

Anytime you are trying to influence or persuade someone, you are utilizing sales skills. It can be something as simple as convincing your friends where the best place to get dinner is, or persuading your boss to give you a two week extension on a deadline. 

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Resources from this Episode

Speaker 1: Welcome back to the art of charm podcast. The show designed to help you communicate with power and become unstoppable on your path from hidden genius to influential leader. We know you have what it takes to reach your full potential in each and every week. We share with you interviews and strategies to help transform your life by helping you unlock your X-Factor. Whether you're in sales, project management, engineering medicine, building client relationships, or looking for love. We got what you need. You shouldn't have to settle for anything less than extraordinary. Thank you everyone for tuning in now, let's start the show today. We're speaking with west Schafer. Lest describes himself as a ruthlessly, pragmatic sales trainer, marketing consultant, keynote speaker, copywriter, and CRM automation expert. He has been the chief whispering officer at the sales whisper for the past 15 years. And he's the author of the sales whisper way. There ain't too much whispering going on up there. So Wes Schaffer of the sales whisperer podcast, how are you doing? Did I have that right west? We'll have this edited. I

Speaker 2: Mostly writes the sales podcast, but yeah, so it's all together, man. Oh, no, we've got to keep that in man. Cause it shows, it shows that you're human, you know, cause everybody sees sees you so perfectly every now and then once in a while you, you make a mistake

Speaker 1: Every once in a while we gotta

Speaker 2: Buy your first and only one of all of 2021.

Speaker 1: And then at the end of the year, Aja gets the, hit me upside the head for everyone that we got. Yeah. A lot of hits coming this year. If you get started in sales west,

Speaker 2: Oh man. I was a secret agent in the air force. They train me to be this, this fancy sales person, man. It was like this top secrets more top secret than UFO's and area 51, you probably didn't even know the air force had a sales division. Did you see that? You didn't, you didn't that's how it was. Um, but yeah, I was in the air force man and I got out in 97, uh, because I want it to be paid according to my production, you know, not just time in, in grade time in service. And uh, you know, I'd been married at that time. We're going on 26 years now. So we were married right at two years we had a baby, we had another one on the way that we didn't know about. Uh, and I left, I resigned my commission. Uh, I was a captain in the air force and jumped into commission sales. Well,

Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting. I think all of us go through a, a awakening in our lives or at least some of us and for everyone else could come as well. But that idea of when you're working for somebody else, they're setting the wage of what you were worth. And then you're like, wait a minute. Other people make way money than I do, uh, at an, in an hour because they were setting with their work was worth. And that becomes the minute you switch that frame, then you begin looking for different and new opportunities.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's, um, I think being a W2 employee, at least in sales and it may be a across the board, but I mean, my world's always been sales. Uh, I think we've been sold a little bit of a bill of goods, you know, and that, you know, unless you're an entrepreneur or doing your own thing, you know, you a crap, you're not living your greatest and fullest potential. And you know, you're a wimp. I mean, it's like, you know, I've had over 500 interviews on the sales podcast and talk to a lot of, a lot of good people with a lot of good stories. And a lot of them, you know, went out on their own, but they did it after building a foundation, right. Paying off debt, uh, saving up to, to make that launch. So you know, that W2 job can be a good thing.

Speaker 2: I think it, everything has a trade off. I think what happens is we show up to work and we're not, we're not truly passionate about it, so we're not focused on it. So we're not focused on it. We're not, we're not producing all that we can. And we don't put us all with cancer. We've got to stay later, blah, blah, blah, to get to catch up on what we should have been doing. We could have done if we truly focused for eight hours. So now we're like give my company, oh my, all of my life, I get there early and I stayed late and I missed dinner with the family. I got to be out on my own to be fulfilled. Well maybe you just need to focus. You know, maybe you just need to give them a full eight hours and get your butt home, you know? And then you have the energy and the time to do other things. And maybe that other thing is to launch your own thing. Okay. Maybe not. But they say multitasking is the art of doing multiple things poorly. Right? I think we could all benefit from a little more focus on what the hell we're working. Well, that

Speaker 1: Certainly brings up a point in, in sales that if you are going to go out on your own, one of the things that you're going to have to do is to sell your value. So your abilities bring awareness to what you're able to do. And number one, it's about creating content, right? Creating things for people to be able to see and put value upon then to being able to promote the things that you're able to create. And then third to capitalize on that create creativity of, of selling those products, services, or ideas. And with those three things, if picking up sells gives you an opportunity to not only sell yourself, but sell for anybody. It is a skill that is transferable to anywhere that you're going to go.

Speaker 2: Well, the biggest misnomer I hear from people, you know, oh, I'm not in sales. Like we're all in sales all the time. Okay. It's like poker. If you're sitting at the table, you'll know who the chump is, then it's, uh, you know, you walk into a restaurant, well, you gotta, you know, stand in the, into your way approach, you know, stand in line approach. The hostess puts your name on, oh, he's 45 minutes. Please go stand in the corner and we'll call you when we're ready for you. You know, then you're seated and the menu is presented in a certain way and oh, oh, happy hour. Prices are only available. If you're in the bar, not over here, oh, you want to substitute a salad for the fries. It's an extra dollar 99 that they're selling you. Okay. All of that is set up as a sale.

Speaker 2: I had to sell my wife. Would you like to dance? I had to sell my wife on, can I get your phone number? I had to sell my wife on. You should go out on a date with me. My kids are selling me every day. Daddy, can I watch a movie? Daddy, can I have some ice cream daddy? Can we go to Disney land? Everything is a sale. Okay. A sale is, Hey, read my headline, follow me on Instagram, open my email. Subscribe to my newsletter. Everything is a sale. Hey boss, I need an extra dollar per hour. Why sell me on that? Everything is a sale. Okay. And once you understand that life gets a whole lot easier.

Speaker 3: Well, I think it's important to realize that sales is a skill set. It's not a single skill. You need to be able to assimilate a bunch of different skills to be successful at sales. And a lot of what you're talking about is what we see in pop culture and the way that sales is depicted, which often leads a bad taste in our mouth. Thinking that it's manipulative, it's memorizing a script. It's forcing people, manipulating people to take action to something. When actually sales is a lot more subtle than that. And it's a confluence of a lot of skills that you have to balance in any conversation, whether you're selling yourself, you're selling a product or a service. And we recommend everyone in our audience. When you're starting out in your career, you should take on a sales job. You should put yourself in that position because it will force you to learn skills that are applicable.

Speaker 3: As you were saying earlier in every facet of your career, whether you want to be an entrepreneur or an engineer, or you want to be an artist, you have to sell your ideas to get people on board, to participate, to get ahead. And many of us haven't had that experience. And I think from your earlier point, you know, if you are in a W2 role right now, what skills are you acquiring along with that paycheck, if all you're doing at the end of the week is counting the dollars earned and you can't wait to hang out with your friends and spend those dollars earned. And you're not taking into consideration the skills that are coming along with those earnings will, you're going to fall behind those who are getting ahead and realize that the set of skills of sales is we're going to break down here is important in every single aspect of your life, dating relationships.

Speaker 1: Most certainly. And you brought up your wife. We were talking about the restaurant and people tend when they hear the idea of cells, they tend to think that it's a transaction where money is present and that's not necessarily, that's just, well, it's one aspect of cells. Sometimes you're just trying to persuade people on ideas. You're persuading them to get involved, uh, in a, in a group, in a, in a project. So I think w when we put, when we talk about cells, there was a dollar sign that goes above it. But the actuality its root cause its root base is persuasion, persuading you that what I have is worth this much money or persuading you, that this is a great idea that you need to adopt or persuading you, that I'm the person that you should be going to dinner with. And that we should be having a transaction of time of effort.

Speaker 1: I mean, there, there is. There's always going to be a transaction stop, stop right there. Are you tired of inconsistent results? Are you dating who you want to be dating? Are you where you want to be with your career? Do you have a proper roadmap to get you to where you need to go? Well, if you're tired of wasting time, tired of seeing other people, Everly build their dream lives while you work twice as hard with lesser results to show for it, perhaps it's time to get the guidance skills and the accountability you need to reach the next level. In our X factor accelerator, you'll be able to develop the tools to communicate powerfully, cultivate, unstoppable systems and mindsets, and be held accountable by a community of high value members, mentors, and coaches. This is not no ordinary community group. Each member has been selected and vetted to make sure that you are experienced as a prosperous one. Our members are driven, knowledgeable and dedicated to advancing their lives and the lives of the community. They are CEOs, professionals, entrepreneurs, serviceman. So come join the fund. If as implementing these concepts from the show has enhanced your life. Imagine what a long mentorship in the X-Factor accelerator can do for you. Unlock your X-Factor and become extraordinary. Apply today at unlock your X-Factor dot com.

Speaker 2: Two people meet right in a sale setting. Um, you know, maybe, you know, you, you come to best buy on the sales man. And like, I see what you got. You got an older iPhone. Well, it's pretty safe. Bet that you probably want to stick with an iPhone, but I'm still not going to assume that. And I'm not going to assume, cause maybe you're comparing me. Maybe you're going to compare it to the apple store. Maybe you're going to buy something used on eBay because maybe it's not for you. Maybe it's for your kid, right? I'm not going to buy my 13 year old kid, a brand new, you know, 12 max pro max. She gets a use seven. Okay. So I'm not going to assume so like, Hey, welcome to the store. How can I help you? I'm not going to assume anything. You know, what am I considering?

Speaker 2: iPhones. Fantastic. It's just for you for someone else. Yeah, actually it's for me. What do you have now? Oh, I've been sticking with an eight. So I've got an eight. Okay. You want to go with an 11 kind of stayed kind of just one step below or do you want to make a leapfrog all the way to the latest and greatest? I don't know. What's the benefits. So I'm asking questions, right? Always be concise. Always be curious. Part of new ABC's of selling. I'm curious. I'm courteous. Always be courteous. Welcome. Thank you for coming in. What brings you in today? So now we get to talking now I understand what's driving things. Oh, your business has changed. You've got a new job. You've launched a new podcast. You're going, you're doing more live streaming, more video. Oh, you need better resolution. You need more stability for the camera.

Speaker 2: Oh, okay. Well, so now I'm going to talk about stability and resolution and upload speeds and all that good stuff. You're like, oh yeah, I need that thing. Right. So am I persuasive? Yeah. Am I manipulative? No. I'm just asking your question. How are you going to use this thing? You know, it's like, Hey, you know, it's from my, it's where my, my daughter she's, you know, she's turning 15. Well, she's been a good kid, you know, COVID she, you know, she made good grades despite all that. So I just wanted to kind of give her a little, thank you. A little appreciation. Oh fantastic. You know, look, I think the 11 pro is just, just about as good, especially for a teenager and you're going to save, you know, 45%. Oh hell. Okay. Deal. Oh. And by the way, if you trade one in, you know, you can get another one as well and get 50% off of that. What, what, so now I'm now I'm selling two phones. Now it's easy to sell the cases, the, the, the extra warranty, blah, blah, blah. So I down sold you to upsell you and everybody wins. Is that, is that persuasive? Okay. Whatever word you wanna use. Was it helpful? Yes, absolutely. Who decides that you as the customer decide?

Speaker 1: Yep. I've always said that the difference between influence persuasion and manipulation is going to be the intent behind it. And everyone needs to get comfortable with, with asking what the idea of this, this intent is or what you were intent is, but also understanding that, but not assuming what other people's intent is. Just having an understanding of what yours is because on face value, a lot of those tactics are going to look the same, but it does come down to the intent of it with somebody who knows they can help somebody be a bit manipulative to sell something that they know is a solution that are problem. I mean, how many times have your parents manipulated you to get you to do the right thing, to eat your vegetables, to do the thing to study, uh, you know, um, we've learned it from the best and, and they wanted the best for us.

Speaker 1: And then on a longer scale, they know that those lessons though, there might've been some manipulation behind it. You're going to be a better person for, for that. And so at the end, the end of the day, we need to take responsibility for ourselves, for what we want, how we're going about it. And that's, and I think the minute you get into these moral quandaries, rather than asking the questions and getting the answers, I think people get a little bit nervous. So what they might find. So they just back out and they say, well, sales isn't for me. Cause I'm not that kind of guy. What do you mean? You're not that kind of guy. You don't like helping people. You don't like solving their problems,

Speaker 2: But that's all it is. Right. And you know, talking about your parents, your parents know they have the long-term vision, right. They know where we want to shape you and mold you as a human being for life. Right. And as salespeople it's like, well, I gotta, I gotta maximize my earnings. I gotta, I gotta push them to get the 12 pro max and the case and the extended warranty. So. Okay. Yes. You do need to maximize earnings for the company, for yourself, for your family. Okay. But maximize earnings over what timeframe over that 30 minutes interaction or over your three or 10 or 30 year career with the company. Okay. Because by me asking questions and maybe even down selling you a little bit and leaving a little meat on the bone, as soon as you walk out of the store, you take a selfie, you go live, man, I'm leaving best buy.

Speaker 2: I I've just got west for. He was the man. He didn't push me. He helped me. He showed me all the deals, the bargains, he saved me. I was willing to pay $2,000. I walked out of there, $1,800. He saved me $200. Come down the best buyer that asked for west, tell them Johnny sent ya. Next thing I know I'm making all these sales cause they're super easy because I left a little meat on the bone, right? I didn't, I didn't go for that last drop, but I I've created my own little acronym. Right? ABCD sticking with the ABCs. Right. But we, everybody knows pipelines and funnels. Oh, I just pack in the top. Something's going to come out the bottom, throw enough crap against the wall. Something's bound to stick and funnels and pipelines are fine as a part of understanding your systems and your timing and your stages.

Speaker 2: So that's all, they're decent as a component of the problem. Is there one direction, right? A pipeline shoving it in from the left. It spits out the right pipeline, funnel patent. And the top comes out the bottom. When I made the AB CDE, I put it in a, in a circle. I can go round the clock and you're just going clockwise. And you're going from attractive people to you. I track them with the podcast. You attract them with. Maybe it's an ad, right? Driving them to a free report or opt in for a webinar. Okay? Now you bond with them. Multimedia. Multi-step get their email, get their cell phone, get their address, get their Twitter, their Instagram, their Facebook, everything else. Connect with them. Meet them where they are. You try to call me good luck with that. You shoot me a message on LinkedIn.

Speaker 2: I'll answer it. Okay. So it's just our preference, but you're not going to reach my mother-in-law on LinkedIn. You better call her. She'll answer her phone. You better mail her a letter, right? She she'll she'll read a letter. So multimedia multi-step and then, so the third point is the cash to close the client. Okay. So five steps, ABCD, professional salespeople understand that the cash is only the midway point of the relationship. Okay. You come into my store and I sell you that phone. Most people think that's the end game. I got to get as much money from Johnny as I can. Cause I'm never going to see him again. Uh, all buyers are liars. If they're, how do you know if they're lying? Their lips are moving. I'm just going to take as much money as I can from this guy. And that's it. But in today's world, right?

Speaker 2: Social media and reviews, you know, you're going to light me up. Yeah. You'll walk out of there. Yeah. I got my phone and you're like, one-star review Wes was the pushiest guy. I would never do business with him ever again. You know what? I may even just return this stuff, even though it's a hassle, I'm going to pay more across the street. Cause he just treated me wrong. So professional salespeople understand that, that the cash it's the equivalent of a wedding. Right? When, when, when we had our wedding ceremony, September 30th, 1995, was the relationship over? Was that the goal? Just to say I do, or is that really when the relationship began? Right? Because all the way up until I do, we can unwind things and obviously you can unwind it afterwards. It's just a lot more painful and a lot more expensive. So at the moment we say, I do, that's really when the relationship begins, so professional salespeople, again, going through the cycle, they understand now we're moving up towards, uh, you know, the, the seven or eight o'clock position.

Speaker 2: Now we delight, right? We deliver that wow experience. So Johnny buys that phone from me and I just, when nobody's looking or it's like, Hey, you know what? There's a sale on these cases, you know? And it's buy one, get one. Or, you know, it's a free case. You just got to mail it in here and I'll mail it in for you. I'll rip the coupon off and mail it in for you. What? I give you a free case. I use the free charger. It was an open box. You know, we just take it, let me, I'm going to include it with you. What, what? So now I'm, you're singing my praises. Cause I delight a delivered a wow experience. Now I've been dear to myself, to you. Now we're back up to the 12 o'clock you go out, you make that video. I just left the store. West is the best. What are you doing? You're attracting people for me. Right? So we're back to the attraction phase and now it gets simpler and faster and easier. Now they come walking in, Hey, can I help you? Are you west? No, I'm not west. I'm looking for west. Cause Johnny said, you're the man. Next thing I know, I've got a line out the door, everybody else they're going to go outside and smoke cigarettes. And so this job really sucks. I'm like, well maybe you suck. You know? But I digress

Speaker 3: Important point in all of this that the goal is not just to get a single purchase. You're going to need a new phone. You're going to need a new car. You're going to need another program. You might need some more training. There's always opportunity for more. If you take a relationship approach to sales, where you are actually genuinely helping this person, you're looking out for their best interests, not your own bottom lines, best interests. And when you do that, you build an immense amount of trust, which then leads to referrals, leads to repeat business leads to people, singing your praises word of mouth. And those are the intangibles that, and I wanted to ask you this, you know, what has shifted in this marketplace? Those are the intangibles that lead to the sales that so many are missing out on. Because as you said, people are more informed than ever.

Speaker 3: Word of mouth is a channel. They look at reviews, Yelp ratings, all of those things online to kick the tires, to see what you're about. And do you have the checkbox next to the trust that I need to do that transaction with you. But if we take a short-sighted approach of just going to follow the script, I'm going to pound you until I get you into submission. And I get that last dollar out of you. Wham, bam. See you later, then all of a sudden, the next month you're missing your quota and you're you're dragging. And you're wondering, man, why, why am I not hitting these things any longer? Because you didn't take the long enough perspective that our parents take. When thinking about us, it's not about shelving those sort of short-term pains. It's actually about taking so good of care of that customer that they can't wait to do business with you again and share it with all of their friends and family to do with you.

Speaker 1: You know, I think it's easy to see that when it is something like getting a haircut, right? If you getting a haircut is something that you're going to need to do periodically, usually what every, every month or so. And because the relationship you build and my mom was a hairdresser and she had heard clients and it was, they came back all the time. And even to this day, I had just left, uh, Los Angeles in September. And I live here in Vegas now. And it was a difficult parting because I've had the same stylist for years. And then I had to replace him coming out here. And of course I found one guy that I like who I go to, uh, on a regular basis because there was a relationship built. Uh, he, he knows what I like and it's, and it's very easy. The idea of replacing him would drive me nuts. That's

Speaker 3: Number one, there's listening. And that goes hand in hand with that curiosity. And this is a mistake that I made when I started in sales is assuming that I know more than the potential customer. Therefore I'm going to start solving their problem, that they haven't even admitted to me before they have actually stated what they need. And I think so many starting out in sales want to rely on the script, want to get from point a to B as fast as possible. And it's easy to fall into that trap of assuming, you know, what the person needs and therefore starting to make recommendations and moving faster in the sales process versus being patient and listening with curiosity to really understand at a deep level, what is the emotion behind solving this problem for someone, not the logic, not the benefits, not the payoff, but why are they in need of this car, this phone, this haircut what's going on beneath the surface. If you can work to that in conversation through curiosity and listening, you're going to start to hear more from the other person. And you're actually going to start to build trust that you can solve their problem. So that was a mistake that I was making very early on in, in my sales career, trying to solve problems quickly, get out of the conversation, get the sale. What are some other mistakes that you see in your clients and people just starting out in sales that they're making as they're developing this set of skills,

Speaker 1: Uh, before you answered, I was, I just wanted to add to what AIG was saying. There is a, a sense of pride in understanding your business, where you tend to think that you have the answers for everyone before they speak because of how well you know, what you do. So it's an easy trap to get, to get stuck in which you have to surrender yourself to say, I don't know this person and I can't infer what I think they might be looking for. And I have to let them open up. And also what goes along with that in order to build this trust, people need, we have to play a vulnerability game in order for trust to be built. So by giving them the floor and being an ear that begins that, that process.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, another of my ABCs is always be curious, right? Slow things down and you know, men are or worse about this in general than women. You know, my wife now, you know, she'll even, she'll start out by saying, I don't need you to fix anything. I just need to vent because my work, you know, I'll go fix it or I'll go punch that dude. You know, what do you mean? They were rude to you at the store, right? She just needs to vent. Okay. I won't go punch him in the face. I just slashed his tires. Okay. Uh, so always be curious, take your time. Okay. But here's, here's what happened. So we were all broken, uh, fatally, flawed creatures. And so we have, we have some unmet issue, unresolved pain that we haven't come to terms with in our lives.

Speaker 2: And so we're going to fulfill ourselves. We're going to pat ourselves on the back by telling the prospect by demonstrating how smart we are, how much I know about iPhones and cryptocurrencies or the building, you know, there's new house and why you got to act now because the market is doing this and the federal reserve, and you're just losing the people. Right. And you don't recognize that you're, you've got this inferiority complex that you're trying to solve at the expense of a sale. Okay. So be quiet, right? Ask more questions like age, like you brought up. It's like when somebody is shopping, something happened, something happened. And, and I'll literally ask that question, you know, Hey, you know, thanks for booking a call before this. I had a call with a prospect, you know, I'm like, what happened? What led you to book this call with me?

Speaker 2: Something happened. Oh, and her business, it was just a culmination of things, too many systems, too much complexity things still aren't working the way they want. She's got three months before her software contract must be renewed. So at least she's coming in early. She's like, I've got to solve this complexity problem before I renew my contract. I want to, I want to know that I'm either making the right decision by renewing or we need to fix things. Okay. And I still, I mean, I, then after we spoke, I then let her pay me to then send her a detailed questionnaire so I can really analyze situation then. So then we met again today was the first of the paid calls to really define what's going on. And we're going to do another call, you know, cause this is, uh, you know, three, $4 million business, 20 employees.

Speaker 2: I don't want to make the wrong recommendation. So before I recommend anything, I mean, we're going to have three or four phone calls, several, you know, about an hour each, then I'm going to prescribe, you know, but you must thoroughly diagnose. It's literally the bedside manner of a doctor, you know, I may know right away. Right. A J Mayo makes an appointment. It's flu season. You know, I read the charts, you know, chills, blah, blah, blah, achy stuffy nose. Oh yeah, dude, you got the flu. Right. You know, let's assume Cove. It's gone right back before. COVID when people just got sick. You know, if I just go, I just text, you know, or tell the PA right. You know, tell him to drink whatever, you know, DayQuil, NyQuil, Tamiflu, blah, blah, blah. If he didn't feel better telling me, call me in 72 hours, that's probably the correct diagnosis and prescription. But because you don't feel listened to, how am I get a second opinion? And next thing I know I lose you as a patient, you know, because I just was too Curt, you know? So we've got to give time that the prospect needs to feel heard and understood. Then they'll trust, whatever you say, you know,

Speaker 3: You hit on a key point, there it's a place of pain. There's some pain. Maybe it's envy. Your, your friend has a nicer phone and you are out and you took a photo and his phone photo is better than yours. And now you realize I got to go from a seven to a 12. I can't have this crappy phone mocking. Maybe it's, you know, maybe it's the car. Your car is great, but it's not the latest model. And you want to have that ability to talk about the latest model. Every one of these decisions is coming from a place of emotional pain, looking to solve that in their business and their life in their aspirations. And if you don't get to that, if you just focus on the benefits and the solution and how great it is and how many other people have had this problem solve for them, they're going to go.

Speaker 3: Okay, great. Uh, yeah. Send me some more information. I'll get back to you because you were not actually listening with curiosity and patience to understand what is the deeper emotional driver for them to schedule this call, to come looking for the solution, to figure out what that transformation or benefit is. And if you don't spend time understanding at a deep level, what that pain is, and you just lump your previous pain onto them, or make assumptions about where they are because, oh, I've heard this before a thousand times, you know, even on our calls, I have to play dumb. I know the solution, but I still have to slowly go through methodically. Well, what are we talking about here? What exactly are you frustrated? How so? How is that impacting you? Is it impacting other areas? Oh, you know, I never really thought about it, but yeah, this problem I'm having in my business.

Speaker 3: Well, it beats me up on the weekend and I don't feel like going to play softball with my buddies. It's keeping me up at night. I'm not able to play with my kids because I'm waking up exhausted. I need three cups of coffee. Well, they would have came to the call, not realizing all these other impacts. And if I just assumed, oh, well I already have your solution then in their mind. Well, it isn't actually that big of a deal. It's not a pain that needs to be solved right now. Let me think about it. I'll get back to you.

Speaker 1: And I want to add to that. It's might not even just be losing a cell. It could be damaging your career. And let me give you an example. You had brought up the doctor patient relationship. Now we have had, so I, we do a lot of doctors come through our programs because there's two pieces to listening. There's one of I'm actually collecting the information that I need to make a better decision. But the other part is the person that is telling me this needs to feel that they've been heard completely, or it doesn't work. And if they don't feel that they've been heard completely or to a satisfactory level, that can lead to a malpractice lawsuit, not only could it lead to just I'm taking my business elsewhere, it could be well because now I feel disrespected and I don't feel heard. And I felt rushed.

Speaker 1: I'm now going to make a huge problem for everybody here because of, of how I feel. And now the doctors who have come through, it's not because they were not compassionate or they didn't have, they needed to learn empathy. They are boosting skills that they had already learned, but they wanted it to take to another level because of just the extensive damage that malpractice or some of these other things could charge. But also on top of that, when they allow their patients to feel heard and thoroughly satisfied that they are getting the correct treatment and there, that trust has been built well, this comes back to the fact of those referrals are going to be coming in because let's be honest, who likes going to the doctor? And if you are dealing with you want somebody who allows you to feel that you are being taken care of? Amen.

Speaker 3: Well, I, and I want to go back to your ABCD E because it, it really was a core driver for Johnny and I starting this business. When we started the podcast, we were taking other training programs. And what we noticed is they were very much about the ABC, get the cash, get them through the door. And then the program experience. Wasn't very great. They didn't really follow up. They didn't take care of their clients. They were churn and burn ready for the next client. And we even heard the coaches in passing, talking about, oh, they just can't wait till they get the next weekend off. And they don't care about this class and this person's problems. And we saw the gap in the market because the gap was, they were not delighting and they were not endearing. And we've enabled to outlast in many companies in this space around training, social skills and dating and helping people in their career.

Speaker 3: Because we build lifelong relationships with our clients. They're part of our family. And I'm talking to clients that I worked with 11, 12 years ago, and I'm still in their life. And they come back and say is the most impactful training because the training wasn't just the week together, it wasn't just the weekend experience. It was us caring deeply about them getting the results well beyond that weekend spent together and understanding that when you take care of people that well, they'll come back years later and write a Yelp review. They'll come back years later after some other life event happened. And they're like, you know what? I need that experience again. I need more out of it. I didn't get as much that I thought I would out of the first go. I'm excited to double down. And that was a gap that we saw in this exact space.

Speaker 3: So think about your competitors. They're stopping at C most people stop at close the deal onto the next one. Where's my next lead. Where's my next call. Who else can I talk to? And if you can start to Excel at delighting and endearing people will, you're going to have people beating down your door here. Marketing efforts are going to be a lot easier. It's going to be a lot more fun in terms of doing sales. When people are excited to, Hey, I got to see Wes, I need a new phone and they're tracking you around the best buy to get you. They're waiting till you're on. They come in on a Friday. Oh no, he's working Saturday. I'll be back on Saturday. That's game.

Speaker 2: You know, entrepreneurs. I think sometimes we get stuck. We think we have to keep reinventing things and it staying ahead of the curve. And that's true to a degree, but you've got to stay true to your foundations. You know, I read this quote from Einstein, you know, he was a professor and, um, and one of the, you know, whatever physics, theoretical physics, whatever classes he was teaching, right. He gave out a final and the student says, you know, uh, professor, um, it's the same exact, this is the same exam from last year. And he says, yes, it is the same exam. But this year the answers are different, you know? And you start to think like, imagine right after he discovers equals MC squared. Yeah. Physics test is probably going to have some different answers, you know, just the very next week. So you think about that and it's like, I'm going to Austin in the fall. I'm already buying the tickets to attend a class that I've attended twice. You know? But the last time I did, it was eight or nine years ago. Okay. The world has changed. Society has changed. I've changed. Right? I got, got another kid, you know, my business has changed. Uh, so I need to hear the same things because I'm going to perceive them differently, you know? So they stay true to what it is you teach. I, you know, you got to adapt and update a little bit, but that core better, never change. Yeah. What

Speaker 3: We're talking about here is the difference between principles and tactics, tactics are okay, how do I work Yelp? And how do I get more leads into my business off Twitter? But the principles are, you attract people by putting good work out into the world. You entice people by paying close attention to what your competitors are doing and differentiate yourself in a meaningful way. And then you convince people and close people through curiosity, whether that curiosity is on Facebook messenger on WhatsApp or on LinkedIn, it doesn't matter. The principles are the same. So mastering the principles are far more important than the tactics and the hacks and the strategies for all these different ways to get from point a to point B. And that's been our overarching theme in all of our programs over the last 10 years, online, dating has changed how people market and sell their businesses have changed, but the principles stay the same because humans are not evolving faster than technology. Our DNA is not evolving that fast. So those same strategies will work over the telephone will work in direct mail will work online. If you understand the principles behind it.

Speaker 1: Well, I was just going to say, and just like reading a book to get something different out of it, as you have gained perspective, and you're looking at it from a different position, what, the way you view the world of 20 is going to change the way you view the world at 30, at least I would hope so. And, and because of that, you're going to this, these same principles that we're talking about, whether it's sales or persuasion, you're going to see them. That's going to be the same, the same principle, but you know, you're viewing it through a different lens. You may appreciate it more because now you have more time spent with it and you have a better understanding of that principle. I, people will come through our programs and it's like, well, isn't that the same program? The guy just took a few years ago? Well, yeah. Well, the guy came in and he had X problems, any work through those. And now, because he's worked through those and sees life from a different advantage, he wants to take the same program because it's going to deliver a different perspective because he's changed.

Speaker 2: For sure. So in

Speaker 3: Starting out in your journey, were there skills or gaps in your self that you felt that most people now starting out in sales need to really figure out to get started? Or do you really believe you just throw yourself in it and you start to make sense of it? Because many people I know that are listening to the show are like, I still don't know about sales. It's complicated. It seems like it's for other people who are extroverts or XYZ, we all have excuses. And you know, you're an out on a different part of your journey in terms of learning sales. When you think back to when you started, you know, what would you tell yourself on that start? Well, you

Speaker 2: Do have to jump in right there. There's, you know, you can't steer a parked car. Okay. Um, I've been, I've been doing jujitsu now four and a half years, and we always laugh about, you know, oh, that guy's been watching YouTube videos. It's like, you know, Mike, Mike Tyson said, you know, nobody, you, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. Yeah. Right. You've gotta be willing to get punched in the mouth and sales, hear that note, get that objection. Okay. Because there's two ways to learn. Right. One is repetition. Uh, but the other is adrenaline. Right. Emotion. And so, you know, the case in point is like, I'm sure you all remember exactly where you were when you heard the news about the nine 11 tower attacks. Right. I know exactly what it was. Right. That only happened one time. But the emotion, the chemical dump you created in your brain and your body seared that memory into your psyche for forever.

Speaker 2: Okay. So when you get frustrated, when you think you have a sale and you lost it, and then you, you take the time to unpack it, to unwind it, to watch the game film, like where did I go wrong? You know, you, you don't make that mistake again. If you care about what it is you're doing, okay. I've got certain moves in jiu-jitsu. I remember specifically when I failed and I sought somebody out and they showed me the fix and the fix is always very simple. It's literally a stitch in time saves nine, you know, did you see, it was very simple. There's just, you just do the 1000 different moves at the exact right. One of the 1000 moves at the exact right time and adjust it based on what injuries you're suffering from. But other than that, it's very simple. Right. And so, but as those, I don't make that mistake again, like, okay.

Speaker 2: And, and I remember who taught me the fix, right. Or, you know, whether it's a, you know, a wrist lock or a leg lock or whatever. So you got to jump in and get yourself in the mix, listening to tapes and watching videos. It's fine. But you got to go, you know, that's, what's going to build that muscle memory, you know, and get you, get you good, get you strong, you know, but Ben, remember you really are. You're just seeking the serve. If you, you know, beginner's luck is a real thing because you show up enthusiastic, you show up happy just to have a prospect. So you're, you're, you're, you're serving them, you're answering their questions. You're taking notes, you know, you're earnest sincere. And that comes in. They're like, you know what? He didn't know everything, but you know, the nice guy I'll give him a chance.

Speaker 2: You know, I feel like he really is trying to help me. So then you, once you become too, too cheesy, you come across as manipulative. Yeah. Things get hard. Right. So stay true, you know, but they always say, you know, people are more afraid of giving a speech than dying. Right. So, so if they attend a funeral, they would rather be in the casket than delivering the eulogy, you know? But the, the, the key to delivering a speech, they say open, big, close, big. If you know how you're going to open and you know how you're going to close, assuming, you know your material, right. It's the subject that you're, well-versed on. But if you know how to open it, you know how to close the stress really goes away. Right. So, so role play this thing out, scripted out, you know how to open a, okay, it's a 30 minute meeting.

Speaker 2: It's a one hour meeting, whatever. It's one person. It's two people. It's 10 people. I know how I know why we're here. I know how I'm going to open. And I know where I want to take them. Everything else is filler. Right? Cause you have, you know, begin with the end in mind, open big, close, big. So from that sales call, again, people are very predictable. You know, Johnny though, I hate those glasses, Johnny. I love that jacket. So I mean, how, if, if I know how to open, to create the response, that's going to tilt the odds in my favor, you know, practice that. And people get tired of it, but it's, it always works. Right. You know, what's a nice girl, like you doing it in a place like this, like, oh my gosh, like what a script. Right? That, so then people say, what scripts don't work. No bad scripts. Don't work. Good scripts. Always work. I mean, I think the rock made about $60 million last year. And what does that do? Do he reads he memorizes scripts and regurgitates them on camera. Okay. What does Jimmy Kimmel do? He asks questions created in advance. Okay. And ask them in an entertaining way. So have your script, which means have your questions open, big, close, big. Okay. And let the rest just take care of itself. And sales can, can get quite easy.

Speaker 3: Well, you bring up a great point that there's nothing better than experience. You can watch the YouTube videos and you could hear other people using that script, using that statement around an objection or getting to the close. And you're like, yeah, that makes sense. I totally see how that works. And then the second year on the phone, you stumble over it. It doesn't fit with your personality and delivery and it doesn't work because you haven't field tested it. You haven't actually had it come out of your mouth in that moment with the emotion, with the adrenaline, going through

Speaker 2: Your own veins. And you

Speaker 3: Know, Johnny and I laugh, we'll, we'll watch YouTube videos on sales strategies. We'll trade them in our slack. And then I'll try to bring it into the call. And the first few times it doesn't work. It's someone else's line, it's someone else's strategy and you have to work it into how you talk to people, how you relate to people and it's going to change slightly. Right. So, yeah,

Speaker 2: Absolutely. But that core is there. Exactly. Yup. And I think

Speaker 1: In today's day and age, well, this technology, I think we have to draw the line in the sand to of what is, what is actual training and experience. Because if you're nervous, you're going to perform to the level of your training and, and reading books or watching YouTube videos is not training. That is an understanding of the information so that you can then start training with it. Yep. People are like, oh, I've read all the books. Or I watched six hours of YouTube videos. Let me add them. Okay. Now you're going to start training. No I've been training. I watch six hours of it. No, no. That was you absorbing information. There is a direct line of that. And then I know also for ourselves, we have a program called our core confidence program with directly, uh, why it was built so that people have a safe setting to practice some of these skills that allow them to, um, deal with their emotions and, and focus on the task at hand, much like sales. Yeah. You're going to have to get out there because the car isn't going to steer, if it's it's in park, however, um, you're going to make a lot of errors getting out there and you have to be comfortable with that.

Speaker 2: Yeah. You do. You, you know, I say, if it's of a job worth doing it's worth doing well. No. If a job's worth doing it's worth doing poorly, it's worth, worth, worth sucking at and endure, embrace the suck until you get good at it. Okay. Uh, and you, you get after it, you know, they, they saying rookies practice until they get it right. Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong.

Speaker 3: All right. So for those in our audience who are starting out in their sales journey and want to learn more on how to work with you, what's the best place to some information less,

Speaker 2: Man, just go get my book, get my bucket. You got to go old school, get off the technology, get pen and paper, go to 79 stories.info. Uh, and you can link to my website from there once you're there, but give my book. It's it'll come from me. Don't go to Amazon because it won't be signed. I'll sign it for you, right. If, yeah. If you pay extra out, won't sign it. Okay. Uh, start, copy. Yeah. And, uh, it's called the sales whisperer way and it's, it's a compilation of what I have stuck with. I write the weekly whisper and, uh, it's a compilation of about 85 of those that I've written over the years on sales and marketing and entrepreneurship and mindset and you know, a few crazy things I throw in there. Um, but that's as good a place to start as any cause from there, you'll see, uh, other, other things that the podcast and, and free reports and whatever, but beautiful. Get it and actually read it right. Don't be a collector. Get it, read it. But it's a work, put it to work. Right. And maybe only read the first three chapters. If something hits you in chapter one, go apply that. Then come back and read chapter two. You know, it's all you got to take action.

Speaker 3: Well, we love asking every one of our guests, what their X factor is. What's the skillset or mindset that not only makes you unique, but as unlocked immense success in your life, what do you think your X factor

Speaker 2: Is? Wes? You know, I always say great salespeople have great empathy. Okay. And empathy is different than sympathy. Empathy is, is being met, putting yourself in their shoes, seeing things from the perspective of your prospect. Uh, and I don't know how I've developed it, but I mean, I'll, I'll work with a chiropractor. One hour, I'll work with a massage therapist. The next I'll work with, you know, I wrote copy for, and as Bestos remediation training company, you know, and then turned around the same weekend and wrote for, uh, an executive, uh, portrait photographer, Jackson hole, Wyoming like $20,000 sessions, you know, like literally same weekend. So I don't know, I can put myself in their shoes, understand what their prospects are going through. The questions that they're asking, the worries and concerns and been able to address them. So, you know, work on your empathy, your empathetic skills. So, um, develop your empathy.

Speaker 3: Love it. Thank you for joining us.

Speaker 2: Amen. Thanks for avid. Good to see you

Speaker 1: This week. Shout out, goose the gym who wrote us to tell us how much he enjoyed the unstoppable course, Jim, who always had trouble speaking up in meetings. And he's always tried to avoid presentation. The idea of addressing the company. Then presentations always freaked them out and he realized that he wasn't going to be chosen to lead any projects until he had gotten over his irrational fear, unstoppable allowed him to not only speak up, but work through his hesitancy for presentations. And it opened up new opportunities for him that didn't know existed. His coworkers started treating him differently and he felt now that he was imposed session of careers, swagger that he hadn't felt before. This is why we've created unstoppable to give you an inside track into the psychology of the human mind, the advanced neuroscience, it takes to defeat your doubts, fears and jump back in the driver's seat of your own life. Unstoppable is jam packed with exercises, drills, and lessons that get you results that stick. This is unlike any course that you've ever taken, and it gives you the tools that have feet, your self doubt, and conquer your fears. Whether it's sales presentations, dating, networking, you'll be able to enjoy the process. See the matrix and perform at an incredibly high level and become unstoppable. Join us [email protected] slash unstoppable. That's the art of charm.com/unstoppable.

Check in with AJ and Johnny!

AJ Harbinger - author of 1165 posts on The Art of Charm

AJ Harbinger is one of the world’s top relationship development experts. His company, The Art of Charm, is a leading training facility for top performers that want to overcome social anxiety, develop social capital and build relationships of the highest quality. Raised by a single father, AJ felt a strong desire to learn about relationships and the elements that make them successful. However, this interest went largely untapped for many years. Following the path set out for him by his family, AJ studied biology in college and went on to pursue a Ph.D. in Cancer Biology at the University of Michigan. It was at this time that he began to feel immense pressure from the cancer lab he worked in and began to explore other outlets for expression. It was at this point that The Art of Charm Podcast was born.

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