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Speaker 1: Well go back to the art of charm podcast, a show designed to help you communicate with power and become unstoppable on your path from hidden genius to influential leader.

Speaker 2: No, you have what it takes to reach your full potential. And each and every week we share with you interviews and strategies that help you transform your life by helping you unlock your X factor, whether you're in sales, leadership, medicine, building client relationships, or even looking for love. We got what you need. You shouldn't have to settle for anything less than extracting. I'm a J and I'm Johnny. Thank you everyone

Speaker 1: For tuning in let's kick off today's show today. We're talking with our good friend, Dr. Jonathan Horowitz. He is the director of the San Francisco stress and anxiety center. Jonathan's working with entrepreneurs, executives, creatives, and other professionals who are experiencing challenges at work or in their personal lives. Due to stress. His clients are often struggling to achieve some semblance of work-life balance, maintain their focus and motivation, manage competing, demands, and responsibilities, and clarify their goals and values. So if that sounds a bit like you, then you're going to love today's interview, and you're going to want to tune in log to the show, Jonathan, how you doing? So we were talking about this before you hopped on. We have actually never discussed stress on the show. It's just not a topic that we've really touched on. We've sort of danced around it and some of the other parts to it around uncertainty and dealing with the pandemic, but we've never really unpacked stress talked about its impacts, uh, certainly social impacts as well. So I think that's a great place to sort of start, but as we kick it off, we'd love to hear a little bit of your journey into psychology and what your origin story is.

Speaker 2: And, and something else I want to bring up there that you will be able to navigate us through. Jonathan, is that we had done some discussions or at least tried around depression. And because we're not experts on that, it's, this is where the waters got murky between anxiety, stress, and depression. So if you can articulate how stress is different and what it is and what we're going to be discussing, that will, I think, help this conversation and certainly will help AIJ and I, in this conversation. Yeah,

Speaker 3: I think I can do that. I think I can do that. Um, you know, listening back to everything that you guys have done, you know, I was, I was looking back through your guests and like I mentioned before, if I can be a fan boy for a second, like, I've been a big fan of the show for a long, long time. I mean, for years, like, and I love what you guys put out there and, and you really, you know, you provide a platform for, uh, a lot of great as say a lot of wisdom and a lot of forums, which is really cool. And I know a lot of your previous guests have talked about, you've had a lot of folks on like Steve Hayes, for example, talking about, um, they, they frame it more as anxiety. But I think in a lot of ways we're talking about this constant condition that we're dealing with, the mismatch between what we want and what we have in front of us.

Speaker 3: Right. And, um, this resistance that all can experience to the reality, uh, the resistance we have to what we're experiencing and what we're feeling and what we're thinking. And I think that shows up as stress. So you had asked me about, you know, my journey into psychology is probably a good place to start. I went to graduate school for psychology. I was in a clinical psychology program and I had, I just kind of landed in a program that was like an anxiety research program. Like I didn't actually set out to go and do that, but just by happenstance, I sort of wound up in this CBT for anxiety program where we were studying, how to treatments for anxiety really work. Like if you really drill into what people are doing in like exposure therapy and trying to figure out like what's actually working there, you know, trying to make, basically trying to make cognitive behavioral therapy more powerful and stronger.

Speaker 3: Right. Um, and it turned out to be a really good fit for me because like, I was an anxious person. I mean, I still am, you know, like I, I still have that, but, um, I had had enough experience with my own anxiety that like when I came across CBT and then acceptance and commitment therapy, I was like, whoa, I really get this. Um, I had had never like severe panic disorder, but I had, uh, done and some teaching before that for like the Princeton review, you would like have people come in, you teach them about like the SATs or whatever, help them, you know, improve their scores. And I remember doing one of these classes before I got into grad school, I was probably like 21, 22 with like a room full of kids, you know, probably 17 year old high school kids. And I was like teaching, going through the lesson lesson plan.

Speaker 3: And for whatever reason, I just had this surge of anxiety. And I just had this like massive, like Publix speaking, panic attack in front of you kids. It wasn't even like I was in front of like, you know, this audience, like, you know, Oscar acceptance award just in front of a bunch of kids. But I remember I like stepped out into the hall and I was just kind of like, oh my God, oh my God. Like, how am I going to go back in there? And I like went back into the classroom and I just kind of like white knuckled it through like the final half hour. And they may not have even known anyway, well, this was happening for me. Like it's entirely possible that none of them even knew what, what, or like remembered it. But for me it was like this searing thing for like the longest time afterwards.

Speaker 3: Like, what was that experience is that can happen to me again. And if I have to get up and teach in front of people, if I have to do public speaking, um, so I knew what it was like to experience like a really intensely anxiety provoking event. And then I had had the experience of forcing myself to get out and do it again and again, cause I had the job, I was halfway through the course. I couldn't just quit right there. You know? So I got back into it and taught more courses and um, over the years, you know, had gotten a lot better around things like that. But I think I could really relate to that experience. And I think so many people can have just, there's the thing in front of you that is anxiety provoking. And then there's all this other stuff that your mind puts around it. How do we get rid of that anxiety? How do we avoid it? How do we deal with it? This like Mehta anxiety thing. And um, so I liked training to help people with all of that other stuff. Cause once you can master that, that other stuff, you're just showing up for the anxiety and just improving your skills and you have to do that. Anything you're going to do, you're going to have to like come face to face with your fears and anxieties. So

Speaker 1: Absolutely. And I think, you know, your experience is so similar to a lot of our clients and in our boot camps, when we film them interacting, they'll come saying they have intense social anxiety and they'll watch the video back. And they're surprised at how calm they look externally and how you can't pick up on it. And that anxiety is very silent to everyone else. You're experiencing it. And internally it is a very difficult experience, but many outside don't see that don't pick up on that. And I think that also leads to a lot of shame and embarrassment around mental health because people don't perceive it like a normal ailment it's happening almost invisible unless it's in a very extreme form. So in our video work sessions, you know, they'll remark, wow. I can't believe I look that way on camera because inside I did not feel that way at all.

Speaker 3: Totally. And we're all looking at everyone else and comparing ourselves to them and we're assuming they have it together because we're all, most of the time, really good at holding things together. And in some ways that serves us really well, but ultimately it can be really isolating, you know? And then, and then when you see the mask fall on people and when you see people who know how to gracefully show some vulnerability, um, it draws us closer, you know, paradoxically, right? Like the whole time everyone's trying to keep together. But when you let it slip a little bit, it actually, uh, actually helps.

Speaker 1: Yeah. It creates that human connection, that vulnerability that we all crave and I'm sure, you know, many in our audience struggle with this perfectionism as well, that is anxiety provoking. So there's the comparison to others certainly. But then there's the expectation that they get everything right. And that they do everything perfect. And that just continues to add to that anxious.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's a shame because that perfectionism piece, that's something that I see in the clients I work with and we work with, so my clinic isn't San Francisco based, but we do teletherapy and we work with a lot of folks who are really, you know, high achieving really smart, um, often work in, in corporate, you know, tech companies in big, like might have big job titles, right. And so much imposter syndrome, you know, people feeling like they're not really who they say they are on LinkedIn, you know? Um, and the is in pieces is huge for people to like, I just see this all the time where, um, people will get frozen up. They're very capable, very talented and they can get completely frozen up, spend, uh, way too much effort on things that are pointless, um, operate sometimes really highly inefficiently in jobs where they need to be moving and clicking and making decisions.

Speaker 3: And, um, you know, so perfectionism in many ways is a hindrance, but then I'll hear people talk about it. Like it is this kind of a virtue, you know, like, oh, well, I, I really pride myself on, you know, getting the job done and not making no mistakes. And of course there are jobs, there are settings where that makes a lot of sense, you know, if you're a surgeon sure. Like you need to be really perfectionistic most of the time. Right. But I think for a lot of us in what we do, if we're knowledge workers, if we're creatives, like you guys are creatives, you know, perfectionism for you must be a huge hindrance, right? Like you just got to get it done and just keep moving ahead and producing and producing. Right. Which is

Speaker 2: Funny. I'm more on the artistic side than AIJ is on the, on the science side of things. And I can understand that and work through the perfection thing. And I'll just throw stuff up just to get a result and AJS first reaction to what I've thrown up as this, get it done is. And so then we have this clarity that I, I also think has benefited the, the company as well. Um, and, and we know that about each other and, and understanding that has allowed us to work together, which normally I think would be quite contentious.

Speaker 1: And I think for many in our audience, they probably wouldn't believe it, but there's still that self doubt. You know, we we've been doing this podcast for so long, in many in our audience think, oh, they have it together. They hit record. They publish. It's great. And there are episodes where I will check in with Johnny after. And I'm like, man, that felt flat. I didn't feel like I really brought a great conversation and he's like, you are fantastic. Let us drop this. Please don't let the perfectionism get in the way of us publishing this great conversation and unfortunate that I have Johnny, but that can really become a prison. If you let that perfectionism, keep you from hitting publish, keep you from starting that side hustle, keep you from going after that job promotion that you deserve. Another way to

Speaker 3: Think about perfectionism in this context is just ego, right? And it's really grounded in fear and control. It's like if I put something out there, then it's out of my control. I don't know how it's gon gonna respond. Um, there's this part of us that wants, like, I want to create something and I want to create it my way. And I want people to think, what I think is cool is cool about it. You know, it's like that little internal dictator and then you do stuff like this enough times and you realize that like the things that I said that I thought were profound and really cool, like didn't resonate, you know? And the things that I just made where to throw away then, and people are like, oh, that was like so interesting. It's like, who's in control here. You know, for

Speaker 2: Myself, I had to learn this through music. And if you rehearse until it's perfect, you're never getting onstage. And at some point you have to tell the guys, listen, we just got to go up there and do it. And this is going to be painful, but right. We're going to get, we're going to be better for it. And for myself, one of the, I think one of the easiest examples of this is the story of the Ramones. You have these four guys in Brooklyn, they couldn't play, but they wanted to be in abandoned. And this seventies, New York city, that was a lot of that going on. And that was a way that, that down and out kids could make something of themselves at that time. So regardless of their musicianship, they put this band together and they decided to do something that was completely different.

Speaker 2: That was on the radio. While everyone on the radio was putting these epic monumentous seven minutes songs together. They're like, well, our songs are going to be a minute and a half, two minutes and, and that's, and that's going to be it. And we're going to copy, um, basically, uh, sixties do a pop, but we're going to blast it through Marshall amps and we're going to wreck the room and they had done this and you can see their early shows that are on YouTube at CBGBs, where they play half a song and then get in a fight on stage. It's just, and it's mayhem. And at this point they don't have their image yet. It's a giant disaster, one glorious disaster, by the way,

Speaker 4: But their ideas

Speaker 2: And what they wanted to do came through first certain people. And those certain people encouraged them and supported them and celebrated them getting on that stage. And now we are seeing the Ramones, having to learn by playing on that stage in front of people. And we look at them as one of the most influential bands that every kid who picks up a pair of drumsticks or a guitar has to go through the Ramones voyage at some point to appreciate what they had brought due to getting on stage and making it happen and learning along the way. Yeah. They,

Speaker 3: They put it out there and people love the energy of it, right. I mean, they were, it wasn't about the money. The musicianship is like, this is new and it's different and we feel it. And they had to be able to, uh, just put it out there. Absolutely.

Speaker 2: And, and for any young, um, young kid, who's picking up an instrument, you're going to learn a lot going to taking your lessons and playing two YouTube videos, but you're going to learn more by taking your up to that stage and giving it all you got. Yeah. So you, you say as

Speaker 3: A young kid, but I'm someone who is like, I play guitar and stuff for fun as, as a hobby. And I find myself as an adult coming up against this again and again, like playing an instrument or trying to do anything creative, like it just puts you into that. You have to grapple with your own perfectionism and you have to grapple with your own fear every single time, right? Every time you're in front of people trying to record something

Speaker 2: To finish up. My point, what I love about the internet is that you have access to so many different people. So if you're playing at a club in your band, you're, you're subjected to their criticism, to the people who are coming to the show and maybe the people who frequent that venue or bar or wherever you're playing, they're not going to be into what you're doing. And you got to know from everyone who was there, but you put that same thing on the internet and there's some kid in Venezuela

Speaker 4: Or, or, or Italy or

Speaker 2: Wherever. Who's like, this is the greatest band of all time. And I found them and it remains special to that person who found exactly what they were looking for. And you just happened to be the person to do it. So you have an opportunity to present yourself to a giant audience where in that audience, there are going to be a swath of people who really vibe with what you're doing. And there's your audience before you had to take your band and take your records and try to get in front of people. Now you can just put it up and people will find you. Yeah, that's one of the

Speaker 3: Blessings of the internet era, right? I mean, for better or for worse, anyone out there can find the people that resonate with them. And I think we have a duty to try and be our best selves and just find those people who resonate with our message and who we're trying to do, what we're trying to do

Speaker 1: And ignore the hate. That's the other flip side of it being online. I'm

Speaker 3: Curious because you guys have a really big platform, like, do you experience that? Do you have to like tune things out?

Speaker 1: Absolutely. Anytime you put your voice out there, your perspective, there's going to be people who don't agree, even with the most mundane of all takes that we have and seminar audience don't agree with the tone of our voices or the way that we interview our guests. And it's interesting because everyone has a different style in the way that we choose to bring on guests. As we, we want to hear more practical information that the audience can use. And Johnny and I are penultimate learners. We're constantly learning from our guests. So for me, it's an opportunity to, to get an hour, to actually learn how I can personally grow. And of course share that with the audience. And there are other interviewers that will take different styles with the exact same guests that we have on. But we've learned over the years that if you get too hung up on the hate while you're never going to hit publish, you're never actually going to put something out there, realize that it just comes with the territory. And even Joe Rogan talks about, you know, not looking at YouTube comments for that exact reason. And I

Speaker 2: Want to add to this, the easiest thing to, to recognize and understand is people are always going to dig into the most obvious thing. So I have a rock and roll haircut. That's what they go in on. I have a voice that is unique. That's exactly what they go in on. So anything that is that, that makes you different or makes you unique. That's what they drill in on. And that's the one, those are the things that you have to lean on that make you special that make you different, that, that show your unique approach to things. But yet that is the exact thing that they want to hammer on and take from you. So

Speaker 3: Over time, I guess you just know, like, these are the things, this is what's going to happen. You have to get used to it. You get a nerd to hearing the same stuff.

Speaker 1: Well, a funny little anecdote around this exact thing, and I think will be interesting to the audience in a number of ways, part of bringing you on the show was my own issues with stress over the summer. And stress really got the best of me. And I ended up working with one of your therapists at your clinic, and he did this exercise with me. So if you take a piece of paper, you draw two lines on it. You make three sections on the piece of paper. He rattled off a list of things for me to put in one of these sections. So at the very top of the piece of paper, the left-most box is completely in my control. The right most box is completely automatic control. The middle box is the gray area. And we went through a lot of prompts, but the one that he gave me is people like me, is that in my control, is that out of my control?

Speaker 1: Or is that in the gray area? I think many who listened to this show would assume that I would put that's completely in my control in the left-hand box. Some listeners would say, okay, Jay that's in the middle based on what we've learned. And I actually put it in the right it's completely out of my control. I can put my best foot forward. And I've learned in 15 years of being on the show that I could deliver, what I think is my best performance and people are going to hate it. And people aren't going to like me for reasons that are completely out of my control. And coming to terms with that, you know, in the beginning caused me a lot of stress and a lot of pain and anguish. Of course you want people to like you, of course, you wish you could have more control and agency in getting people to like you.

Speaker 1: And even with all the tips and tricks and secrets, we have our guests share that Johnny and I have worked on our communication, our presentation. I put it in that right. Most box, because even with my best efforts, on my best days, there are people listening to this who are clicking to the next episode, going into iTunes and giving us one star. And that's out of my control. And I understand that now, and it doesn't cause me stress anymore. So it was a very profound exercise to go through to realize, you know, how am I orienting my life? And the last prompt he asked me was, you know, where would this have been five years ago or 10 years ago? Would you still put it in this right box? And I said, no, actually I probably would have put it in the left box. I would've said it's in my control. Of course I want people to like me and I can control them, but that's a fallacy. We don't have that level of control in the way people perceive us. And when you start hitting, publish, you start putting things out publicly. You learn that lesson rather quickly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Well, I appreciate you talking about that. I mean, but so as you're talking about that, like people liking you and you being in, or out of your control, I have this like internal reaction, like, ah, like this is so, ah, it's hard to talk about or something, you know, because it's, I think it's really deep for all of us, like we want to be liked. And we recognize that there's a lot of, uh, upside to that. And so we spend the first half of our life, you know, all high school, all the way up through there, through there, figuring out how to be liked in a lot of ways. Like, what are the things that if I do them, people are going to respect me. Girls are gonna like me or whoever, you know, like that's a really important part of growing up. And then at a certain point in your life, you have to be able to step away with, from that and think about, okay, how do I be true to myself? Um, how do I find what I really have to offer and trust that if I'm able to do that and put down those old strategies that I'm going to find my way into the right parts, the right places in my life, the right career, have the right friends, the right partner partners, you know, like those, those are all the fruits of doing the work to figuring out who you really are. And it's difficult, man. It's hard.

Speaker 1: It is. And it can be stressful. And part of what Johnny and I have shared on the show is our upbringing being blue collar in nature. And, uh, both of our dads selling us to work our tail off and be stubborn and keep outworking people. And unfortunately that stiff upper lip that work ethic can lead to you not managing stress well, and I had a brief hospital stay a few years back because of blood pressure and stress. Even with that warning signal, I just started taking the meds, listened to my cardiologist and just thought, oh, I'm not going to worry about the stress component, the mental health component. And then things piled up in the past year from having to change the business, remove all of our in-person training, which is something that John and I absolutely loved doing and having a crossroads of, well, what are we doing as a company now with, with COVID and that stress just piled high.

Speaker 1: And I was fortunate enough that my fiance, Amy recognized the warning signs and said, Hey, I don't think you're managing stress very well, but internally I didn't know that I was really managing or not managing it. I just took it as well. That's what happens when you work hard, like this is just how life is supposed to be. It's supposed to be stressful. So if you could help our audience recognize some of these warning signs that maybe they aren't managing stress as well as they think they are. And those opportunities that maybe you should seek some support and some help. Yeah. So one

Speaker 3: Of the things that's about stress is the, when you're under chronic stress, it becomes difficult to see it in yourself. And it becomes difficult to remember who that person was, who wasn't stressed out, you know? Um, so I think in terms of resilience and stress management, a lot of it is around trying to keep yourself out of that red line area, right? Because once you cross, it's like once you cross a certain threshold of chronic stress, it can become much more difficult to ramp yourself back down. So it's not so much about having strategies to use in the moment when you're really stressed. Although we can talk about those too. I think overall, what we're trying to do with our clients is help people put together a lifestyle, uh, a series of behaviors, you know, make consistent decisions that are gonna help them stay out of that, that red zone.

Speaker 3: Right. Um, you asked about how can you recognize when, when you're there? I mean, I think if you're noticing that you're losing your appetite for one thing, you know, if you're not sleeping, like these are physiological markers, right? But like if your physiological physical health is not where it should be, I think that's the first thing that you should notice him for. A lot of people sleep is a big indicator. Um, I have clients who say that, you know, they can only get a good night's sleep when they're on vacation from their job. Well, that's a good indication that you're experiencing chronic stress, right? So that's a big one. Um, I think noticing the way you react to people like, you know, how combative, how irritable can you be at the, you know, when you're under chronic stress, you are unable to, uh, censor yourself, right?

Speaker 3: You, you, you're unable to inhibit those responses that are not necessarily helpful. And we see that like, there's a good, um, physical reason for this, right? There's a good biological reason for this. Um, if you think about like the fight flight or freeze response, right? When an animal is under stress, animal is stressed out, you know, they're going to be looking for the exit. It's like, that's the fight response, uh, or the flight response. Um, the freeze response, you know, feeling overwhelmed and not able to respond, you know, just get small and kind of freeze up. That's a defensive response. And then there's the fight aspect where, you know, you get combative in your elbow and kind of like testy with people when you're really stressed out. So these are all indications that you are, uh, an organism. You are an animal who is experiencing stress, and there's a cascade of physiological responses that are leading you to have behavioral tendencies that are different than they would be when you're at rest, stop

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Speaker 3: The problem for human beings, right? Like we're not just, you know, rats or something, right? Like the problem for human beings with being under stress aside from health consequences. Because I would say that's a whole other thing that there's a lot of misunderstanding about that. Um, w w what I'll talk to clients about and try and help them understand is that like the problem, when you have chronic stress, like this is that you can't show up and be the person that you want to be, you, most of us want to show up and be someone who is patient and who is kind, and who is able to access that charitable, empathetic parts of ourselves. Right. But when we're stressed out, we can't do that. Um, we can't be creative. Like, that's the other thing. Uh, if you look at an animal who is, um, in a very relaxed state, they have a lot of like behavioral, a big wide behavioral repertoires, how you would talk about this and behavioral psychology.

Speaker 3: They can do a lot of different things. Once that animal gets very stressed out and scared, you know, they're just looking for the exits or whatever. It is very narrow in terms of what they can do and what they can focus on. We live in a world now where we need to be creative to live our lives. We need to have access to like creative thinking. And if we're always in a place of like, okay, how do I just get through this? How do I get through this? How do I get out of this? We're not going to be able to live the lives we want. It's definitely demonstrated

Speaker 4: Through Maslow's

Speaker 2: Hierarchy of needs. When you have those basic needs set and you're feeling good, then your brain has the freedom to start looking at other areas. What things can I make? What things can I do better? Where can I improve? Uh, what can I do now, outwardly to help other people now that we are taken care of? And I think the other thing that you mentioned there, and to be able to understand and see the warning signs before it gets too heavy, is having a good base of how you feel when you're at your best and to live in, in that, in that lane for a while. So, you know, when you're off of it and when you know, oh, something is up, I'm not at a hundred percent, I'm, I'm a little blurry today, or something thought feeling right. I'm a little off, because without that, if you live a life that isn't structured and you're perhaps, uh, dependent on or doing a lot of drinking, um, for myself and I used to smoke cigarettes, like these things, don't allow you to

Speaker 4: Reach at your height, uh,

Speaker 2: At your best. So it's difficult to gauge whether or not you're off or not. And that makes it easy for stress to compound, and then overwhelm you. I agree.

Speaker 3: Like those things will cloud your judgment. And again, the more stress you're under the less good, less good your judgment is going to be right. Cause you're probably not sleeping as well and eating as well. And things like that. So having practices that will lead you back to that person and give you, I always think of like, if you've ever been to, um, swamp land or like a lake or something, they have that depth marker coming up. And it says like, the water is at like five feet, eight feet, whatever. Uh, when you have practices like meditation, for example, or exercise or journaling where you're going to do this thing every single day, no matter how you feel, it kind of acts like that marker where you can go, like I'll have days where I sit down and meditate and I'm like, I feel fine.

Speaker 3: I'm fine. I'm fine. And then like 10 minutes later, I'm like, you know what, like, Jesus, I am like super anxious today. Like I didn't even realize that. And then once I see it, I can kind of go, all right, what's going on today? What am I, you know, and I like walk through it and then I can show up to the meeting or the call or whatever, and be much more centered and not, not get hijacked because we all know that feeling of getting hijacked where you're just like, oh my God, why did I say, did not realize I was that irritable or whatever.

Speaker 1: Yeah. And I certainly think it also changes your perception. So when you're in that chronic state of stress, you're not even seeing the warm fun signals. You're only picking up on the negative latching onto it, holding on lashing out. And that was certainly part of my experience. Uh, and what Amy noticed was just how irritable I was at very small things, which is totally unusual for me. And it was a challenge because I thought, again, going back to the way I was raised, I just got to outwork this problem. Like, this is just yet another problem facing the company. And I just have to outwork it and there's going to be stress associated with it, but I can just toughing it out. And it wasn't until I actually started working with a therapist that I realized I was not serving myself by toughing this out. And instead by focusing inward and looking at what are those triggers, what are those patterns in my behavior that lead to that chronic state that lead to that red line, as you said, I now know how to safely navigate the stress that's going on in my life without letting it get to the red line where I'm not sleeping, I'm not eating and I'm irritable. Great.

Speaker 3: I'm glad to hear that, that you did that. And then it was helpful for you. I mean, it, that makes me so happy on so many levels. Um, and that voice you're talking about, like that idea that you just got to work through it, right. I think that's a cultural voice. That's something that we're told our whole lives. You know, you, you gotta outwork the competition, you gotta just grind, grind, grind. And again, it does make sense in certain contexts, right. Especially when you're young, like when you're in high school or college, or you're trying to get your career launched. Like there are times when you're really, really focusing. I think the nature of the challenges we face changes as we get older. And I think about, um, I like to do crossword puzzles, right? And sometimes I'll get to the end of a crossword puzzle.

Speaker 3: I'm on a plane or something. I'll have like three clues left and I'll just be like, I am just gonna bear down and just figure it out. And I'll just kind of hammer at it. And at a certain point, I'm like, I'm not this isn't gonna happen. And then I look back at it, you know, an hour later and the answers just come to me. So it's not about working through the problems we have in that way of just grinding. A lot of times we really need to step out change context, access, creativity, access, empathy, empathy is a big one. A lot of times, we're just not seeing things from someone else's perspective because we're so locked up. And once we have access to those things, it's like, oh, I have this super power. So problem solving, you know, we all have it.

Speaker 1: Well, you bring up a great point. And, and what we talk about with our X factor is if you are in a state of chronic stress, you can't find those super powers. You can't channel that ability. If all you're doing is just bashing at the problem and putting yourself in a state of not sleeping, not eating, not exercising and letting it overwhelm you. And right now, for many of us, a big part of stress is this work from home state. And I know that even impacted me partially over the summer was holy cow. You know, my office is now in my house and I don't have any separation. I don't have a place to go. We used to have an office Johnny and I would go work at the office. And then once you left the office, you had that sort of state of, okay, now I can relax. I can enjoy some leisure. It seems for many of us with work from home, that those lines are completely blurred and it's creating even more stress in our home life. Is that something that a lot of clients are facing and, and how can we start to create some space in our life to manage this new stress?

Speaker 3: Yeah. This has been incredibly common. We've, we've seen a lot of folks dealing with these challenges over the course of COVID. Um, a lot of the folks we work with are in the bay area. They're in San Francisco, they're in places where, you know, some people have a roommate, some people have six roommates in the house, you know, um, it's gotten a little better since the pandemic real estate wise, but, um, this is how a lot of people are living and, um, we've had to help clients be creative in the way they structure their time and structure their location too. So one thing that I think is important is to have rituals. Okay. So ideally just step back, I think in the best case scenario, you have your dedicated office spot in your house. You know, maybe you have an actual office, maybe this is where you do your work, right.

Speaker 3: Um, that's the best not everyone can do that. If you can't do that, if you can have some rituals or ways that you can really signal to yourself that you're shifting from the workspace, from the work Headspace into the casual home hangout Headspace. And sometimes that can be physical. Like I had a client who lived in a small apartment in the city and he's in there with his girlfriend all day long. And they're like working at the kitchen table. This is during the depths of the pandemic, you know, when like no one was going anywhere and they were working all day at the kitchen table and then work would just bleed over into home at night. And it was all this Murph. It's like mess of like work and home and no sleep and everything. So one of the things we said, well, you know, maybe in the morning you can have a ritual of like set the kitchen table up for, for work, right.

Speaker 3: And put your laptops out and get all your things together. And then when you're done at the end of the day, uh, you break all of that stuff down and you put your place mats out and you put up your pictures of your friends and you light a candle and you kind of are sending yourself a really powerful signal that we are now moving into a different place. Right. Um, it's a very subtle kind of thing, but it can be really powerful, uh, as a, like a, like a border, like a boundary, you know? Um, and then behavioral boundaries can be really helpful to, uh, for me it was going for walks, especially when we were in the really intense lockdown phase. Like in the morning I would go for a walk and then I'd sit and meditate for 10 minutes and then start working. And it was like, here's my signal to start the day. And then at the end of the day, I would go for a walk and it was just like, I'm kinda like clearing all that energy out. You know what I mean? Just like shifting my mindset. And then I felt like I could come back home and sort of be a different person. We had all that stuff naturally pre pandemic. And I think we have to work to create it now. Absolutely.

Speaker 1: And the, the ritual is a component that we've talked a lot about on the show. Even the smallest thing, like the ritual of making coffee, you know, that for me and Johnny is, is something in the morning that we sort of tied to, okay, now I'm starting my day. Now I'm starting work mode AIJ and it doesn't have to be this elaborate thing, but again, creating those mile markers of like, okay, I'm turning on for work. I'm turning off for work and giving yourself that space to de-stress because as we know, sitting in front of a computer, having slack open, being on zoom, taking calls, all of that, doesn't give you rest or relaxation that you need to recharge. And if you're doing that 24 7 at the kitchen table and then Wolf and down some food right next to the laptop, you're well on your way to burn out. I certainly

Speaker 2: Know how important my morning ritual is. And then of course the evening, but I even have a ritual when I begin to write music, which is it's usually in the evening. Uh, so the it's it's dusk out. I will set up mood lighting, uh, with, with everything in the house, lights, some candles and it's is signifying just a place to, to release and to get in that, that spirit. And if I don't do that, it doesn't work as well. I'm, I'm just, I'm not transported to a place where I can let go of certain things and focus on others and it's, and for myself who was always have been in a band, uh, I now find myself due to COVID and moving to Vegas that I I'm not in that environment, but I had to simulate the walking into a rehearsal room and I had to do that by setting up an atmosphere that was different during the day.

Speaker 3: Yeah. So it sounds like you've found a way to adapt and to find a ritual and routine that works for you. And that's so important for everyone. I think, regardless of what kind of work you're doing is, but especially if you're working from home now, um, this is, this is so unnatural and it's such a big shift

Speaker 1: And we talk a lot about self-care. We hear self-care in, in modern media. And typically that involves, you know, exercise and nutrition, but not as much time is really spent on mental health. So what are those things we can do to practice self-care for our mental health, again, to avoid the red line situation? I think there's

Speaker 3: A few different things you can do. You know, part of it is things you can start doing. And part of things is that you can stop doing, um, in terms of things that you can start doing that are really important. And this is all about habits. I think like daily habits are much more important than big grand gestures, right? Um, one of the most basic ones we look at as mental health professionals is just social context, right? Like how often do you spend time with people you love? How often are you able to speak with them, see them, you know what I mean? That you're in your friends and people you care about. A lot of us have been dealing with the isolation of pandemic and ways that we can overcome that. So that's, that's a number one I would say. Um, I think exercise and movement are hugely important.

Speaker 3: Um, so powerful and changing your mind state, right? Like if you're feeling down and stressed out and if you're intensely anxious, go at least for a walk, go walk around better yet, go for a run. You know, those kinds of things are, are really powerful. Um, meditation, this is one of those things like mindfulness types of practices, like meditation and yoga and Tai Chi and stuff like that. I'm so happy to see these things getting much more accepted and popular. I feel like 10, 15 years ago it was like, Ooh, you know, what is that? There was kind of a weird thing around it, but now it's so widely. And so incredibly powerful, the most difficult thing with meditation that I see is like people have a hard time to implementing it. And I know I struggled for many years to have a consistent meditation practice.

Speaker 3: And this is something where I think if you can do it even one minute a day, you know, one to five minutes a day, just to make a practice of just sitting down and just getting focused on your breathing, gives you a bit of a touch point. And then it's easier to expand on that to 10 minutes or 20 or whatever more if you're going to do that. You know, but, but consistency is hugely important. Um, and those are the, you know, getting nature is another big one. Just getting outside, being around trees or whatever kind of nature you have near you is incredibly important. Um, I live in the middle of Oakland and like, I've got all these buildings around. So really important to me to make a point every day to go be around greenery some point every day. Um, the other thing in terms of like what I said, there are things you can stop doing.

Speaker 3: And we were talking a little bit about this at the beginning, but taking control of your media environment is incredibly important right now. You know, times are really hard. There's a lot going on in the world that Bob Marley song so much trouble in the world, you know, that's, that's what we're going through right now. And if you just passively receive that all the time, it can be really bad for you. Um, I, you, this is just from personal experience. There was a while there where my routine was like to wake up and jump onto Twitter and just like, what are today's arguments? You know, what are, give me some takes and give me some arguments and some back and forth. And, um, it wasn't serving me well, because what would happen is I would get to my calls at 8 39 in the morning and sit down and I'd be all irritable and amped up.

Speaker 3: And I would feel super powerless about all this stuff going on. And what's the biggest atrocity and all this stuff. And at a certain point, I decided to take kind of a, I did a cold reset where I just stepped away from all the news for about a month and a half and was just like, I'm just not even going to go there. And then when I reengaged with it, it was in a much more conscious way where like, today I'll go on Twitter or I'll read the news or I'll do whatever, but I'm much more aware of how this is affecting me. And I noticed if I start to get into that doom loop where I'm just looking for something that's going to make me feel anxious, or if I'm looking for outrage, I kind of go, okay, I got to step up on this because it's not going to work. It's not good. Johnny's smiling.

Speaker 1: He has a lot to say about those empty media calories. Oh

Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, for, for social, I mean, Twitter is certainly my favorite just because it's certainly fun and I have a lot of laughs on it, but the downside of it is can be overwhelming. And as, as much as entertainment as it can be, it can definitely work you up. And then again, to go back to AJS exercise with the box, you're sitting there going, whoa, so yeah, the world's on fire and what am I going to about it kind of like, oh, I'm not gonna do anything about it. And I'm like, oh, okay. So I'm going to go for a walk. Well, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Everything's horrible. So what are you gonna do? I'm going to, I'm going to tweet about it. I'm going to argue with somebody

Speaker 1: Evolution around, okay. I'm going to consume the news. And at the start of the pandemic, I wanted more of the news. I wanted to protect myself or business family, friends. And through that, I was like, you know what? I need the news even faster. So I ended up finding myself on Twitter. And of course the news is published even faster in 140 characters. And then around the middle of summer, when the riots hit LA and I was on the local news, was on the TV, I'm on Twitter. And I'm seeing on Twitter that our favorite Italian restaurant is burning to the ground with an arsonist. And I turned to Amy and I'm like, I can't believe this. The world is literally on fire that we know here in LA. And she's like, can you please just turn off this local news, just take a step away from Twitter for a minute.

Speaker 1: I don't like what I'm seeing from you. You are in a doom loop and the next day come to find out that was not accurate information. So not only did I get myself worked up about our favorite Italian restaurant burning to the ground, it wasn't even real. It wasn't even true. And that's when I realized, okay, I need to step away from Twitter. There's really nothing that I'm gaining from getting the news that quickly. And we had friends a few years ago tell us that they don't interact with the news at all and their content. And we kind of shrug our shoulders at that. Like, wow, that's a pretty strong take. And I'll tell you now that I've unplugged all the important news still gets to me. I still know about Afghanistan, but I'm not going and refreshing websites and chasing down this information because everyone else around me is chasing down this information.

Speaker 1: So I'm going to get the news, whether I'm avoiding it or not just through casual conversation, interacting with my friends, family members. So that for me is a much healthier way to consume what's going on versus where I was a little over a year ago, when things in LA were dire the pandemic, the lockdown, everything was going on. And it was just consistently hearing about the new awful things going on in the world. And yeah, exactly that a frozen state of freight of my own shadow. I don't want to go out. I don't know that I can trust anyone and that is not helpful for our mental health. The other

Speaker 2: Thing about it is because of the way it is set up and everyone's engagement, you will find whatever it is that you're looking for. And once you realize that, that, that, whatever it is, it's right there, that then you're like, well, wait a minute. Well, how's it news. Um, how is this important? I can, whatever lens I want to see it from. That's what I get. And not only a couple sources, as many as I want to bolster, whatever, uh, whatever I want to take away from it. So how does that offer you any value when you're just making it up and finding everything that you need to back up those assumptions? I mean, that's, once you realize that you're like, oh, I got to put a better filter on and I need to take some time off.

Speaker 3: Well, it's like we were saying before about, you can find anybody out there who aligns with you and likes you like pizza, we're doing this themselves all the time. And then you find that the same for people that have the same opinion as you. And just read that stuff again and again, and then you're isolated and, you know, some people break from reality entirely. So yeah, it's, I think we need to be more careful than ever with this stuff, with the media that we consume. And I would, I would put social media in that bucket as well, you know? Cause that's a whole other thing you're just looking at a bunch of, um, curated, filtered stories about your friends and their perfect lives, right? The quote unquote perfect lives. Um, and it can have a similarly distorting and disempowering impact on us as well. You know, all very well-intended, but when you're miserable at your desk and you see your friend, you know, on vacation, uh, in Tahiti or something, it's like that can have a disheartening effect on you. And there's all sorts of, um, yeah, the emotional impact, I guess that can be unintended.

Speaker 2: Well, think of it this way, 40 years ago, you didn't know all this stuff that you know about your friends now because people are just posting their inner thoughts and their pictures. And you didn't know any of this stuff. You only knew when you asked. So now not only do you know all this stuff, you're being judging about it and you're comparing and contrasting things that you would never know previously with your life now. And so you're, you're, you're literally driving yourself insane. Yeah

Speaker 3: Know, like, I, I was never insecure about my kitchen, but then I saw this,

Speaker 5: Someone I went to middle

Speaker 3: School with or something that like, why would you ever know that? Yeah.

Speaker 1: And I think for many of us, we don't realize that we have control. We can turn this off. And we work with clients who find themselves gravitating towards the news or social media or video games as a distraction. And they think they're doing themselves a service by, okay, this is just me unplugging. I just need this to unwind. But actuality is getting them even more wound up. It's robbing them of the social connection, which you talked about earlier, which is far more important than what streaming on Netflix, being in touch with people you love, actually fostering, developing those relationships has been proven scientifically to add years to your life, to help you mentally and physically sustain everything that life has to offer. But unfortunately the news, the social media makes it so easy for us to feel connected artificially and not actually invest in those real connections that we need as humans. Yeah.

Speaker 3: I S I see that happening and I wonder how much of this has to do with social anxiety too. You know, if you're in a place where you're physically connected to other people and every day, you know, let's say it's back in the day, every day, you got to leave your house. Cause he got to go get food and you got to go be around people and run into people and have conversations. It seems like there's not as much space for social anxiety to get purchased, uh, to get, to get a hold of you when you're forced into all of those interactions with people all the time. And now if you can just as easily, you know, have these pseudo interactions online and then it can almost be weird. I remember, especially during pandemic, like clients talking about how weird it was to actually see people in person and it's like awkward. And now do you shake hands or do you not? And everything. Um, so I think it's reinforced.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, these are learned practice skills and we talked about it on a previous episode. Even I had a bit of social anxiety coming out of this simply because I wasn't in the room with people for a very long time. We all weren't. And I laugh, especially because up in the bay area, I know here in LA, too, I've seen it. You know, I used to crack the joke. Well, at least we get to socialize with our door dash delivery guy or our Instacart delivery. And now they have robots delivering our food. So we, we are literally removing all social interaction. We can go on an app, we can order whatever we want. Our dry cleaning gets picked up. They don't look us in the eye. They're wearing a mask, we're wearing a mask. And all of a sudden you've gone weeks on end without any real human interaction, that anxiety, that stress is going to be through the roof.

Speaker 3: Totally. Yeah. Any, and it also, I mean, it gives you this, this control in a way over your life, that in some ways it's very comforting, but it also erases a lot of that spontaneity. Like yesterday, actually I was out, uh, eating someplace and I ran into someone that I hadn't seen in like four years just randomly on the street. And it was really cool. It was like, oh yeah, that can happen. People can just show up in your life, uh, you know, uninvited, like in a good way. And it's cool that hadn't happened in the longest time because of all this, I'm excited for that to start happening more. Yeah. We're herd animals

Speaker 2: And we get value from the heart. We get value from being from attention approval and an acceptance. And if you're not getting that, if you're not having those social interactions and you're just having pseudo interactions and you're like, oh, I guess somebody liked my posts. I mean, your needs are not being met. And because your needs are not being met, that is going to manifest itself in behaviors that you're going to find unappealing and that other people are going to find other unappealing. And it may even put you in a position to be supplicating or combative to get the attention approval and acceptance that you're not regularly getting anymore. And again, this goes to putting another red flag of what you're seeing these behaviors come out and you are seeing yourself do things that in the past, you wouldn't have done this there. That is another red flag. Totally.

Speaker 3: It's where, you know, bringing this back to stress, it's like we, uh, normally help each other through stress. We kind of soothe one another socially and you see this in your workplace. If you have a really difficult interaction or a meeting or something, and you go in there with one of your coworkers, they're like, oh my God, what was that about? I know that was crazy. You are soothing each other and you're bringing down your stress levels and you can see that physiologically right there changes hormonally that occur in interactions like that. So we've set up this social structure, especially lately that just doesn't support those kinds of real interactions. We get them somewhat, you know, we're like we are having that somewhat right now. Right. And we're all virtual, but I think there's just much less opportunity to do that. Um, you don't have those hallway moments. You don't have those running into people. So we have to work extra hard right now to set up lives where we have the social inputs, where we have those interactions where we're really, really taking care of our stress. And we've got to do all this in the face of a cultural conditioning that says, Nope, just grind harder, grind harder, just suck it up and do it. So it's a lot to remember.

Speaker 2: I want to point out with all of this, that everything that you have just said, I have not seen anyone who's put into a leadership position in our government talking about these very things that all of us need in order to stay healthy.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Sadly, I mean, following the science, unfortunately we don't follow all of the science when it comes to our mental health, especially in the science is pretty clear. Human connection is essential to our health, to soothing the stress. As we're talking about to feeling valued, to tapping into your true potential to self-actualization, that's all part of community and feeling connected. And unfortunately, when we feel isolated as humans, that not only can lead us to dark places that can lead to the ultimate end in suicide. And unfortunately, as John has talked about with some of his friends through this pandemic, the isolation became so great. We're seeing more and more of that. And I, I don't want to rail on technology. I know we have some people write in or about our views on technology because technology is also helping. And, you know, one of the things that I've thoroughly enjoyed in working with a therapist through you is that I have access through zoom.

Speaker 1: He is up in the bay area, I'm here in LA. And when I talk to friends locally about seeing a therapist, they're always like, oh, it's so challenging. I don't know how I'm gonna find one. And then I gotta get got to schlep there and the parking. And there's just always these excuses. And I'm so excited that with telemedicine, we're lowering that bar to make it more accessible to everyone, because I think it has such a powerful benefit and it shouldn't be something that you don't do because it's too difficult. It shouldn't be something that is more accessible. And when I share with my friends, Hey, I found my therapist online and I see my therapist online. I don't have to go into an office. There's no dealing with parking here in LA. They're all surprised. So what have you seen the changes through telemedicine and the impact that you are having with your clinic in the bay area?

Speaker 3: It's been so interesting that the pandemic thing, like from that perspective, so right before the pandemic happened, we were trying to encourage our clients and our therapist to do more telehealth, because it's just a lot easier for those reasons that you were saying, right. Instead of taking three hours out of your day or whatever it is to, to go and travel and see your therapist and everything, you can take an hour, you know, it's pretty convenient. And, um, we got a lot of like, I don't want to say pushback. We got some pushback. There were some people who were like, absolutely not. I don't want to do that. Um, I work in the old fashioned way. It's, face-to-face you have this experience in the room, you know? Um, and then from clients, it was like, just not people were just not that interested. They were like, you know, you go see your therapist in the office.

Speaker 3: That's how you do it. And then you fast forward about three months, you know, it was around June or July of last year when we just had a huge number of folks seeking help. And it was like everybody in the world, just like, okay, this is just how we do this. Now, if we're doing grandma's birthday party over zoom, you know, we're going to do this, we're going to do therapy over zoom. And it is, it just been a huge shift. Um, the good thing about it is that you have more resources available to people. As far as one-on-one mental health goes, you have more resources available at all different price points at all different types of models and services, right. Than you ever have before. Um, the difficult thing with that is it can be really overwhelming for people still, you know, it's like anything else when you try to figure out where do you start, where do you go for help? Um, it can be really difficult to, to figure that out. I think

Speaker 1: It's important to realize that with its accessibility means you should at least try it. You know, I think many people dismiss it and I've talked to clients of ours. Who've been dismissive. And I view coaching is essential as therapy, allowing yourself to talk through what's going on and have those conversations that we may not feel comfortable putting on our spouse, putting on our loved ones or our friends and allowing us to sort of see the impact that those behaviors and thoughts and patterns are having on our lives from a third-party perspective has been really helpful for me in unpacking some of my childhood and realizing how I'm bringing that into current relationships and some patterns that I didn't even realize were there. And it doesn't matter how many conversations I've had with Johnny. I don't think he would have helped me get those breakthroughs either.

Speaker 1: So I think we oftentimes just go, oh, you know, I talk about that with my friends. I talk about that with my family, I have support and we don't realize that it's one click away. And if you don't like that therapist, the next therapist is one click away. And we've had some sponsors over the years that have moved into the telehealth space. And I think it's just such a powerful tool for anyone who's feeling isolated, who's feeling alone, having difficulties feeling that stress and that overwhelm and that anxiety, that imposter syndrome, these resources are available to you. And I have to say after, you know, starting over early summer till now, it's made a world of difference in not only my management of stress, but also just showing up and having more fun on the podcast and allowing myself to tap back into what I really enjoy about what we do here at the art of charm.

Speaker 3: Well, I'd love that. I'm so I'm so happy to hear that, you know, um, it just makes me, it makes me so happy when I hear people who were previously skeptical about therapy who have done it or coaching, you know, and they're like, wow, I really got a lot out of that. Cause I've heard all the arguments. And I think, you know, I've come up against people who are just like, no, absolutely not doing that. And when I've seen those people go and try a lot of times, they get the most out of it, you know? So that's just, and I'm, I'm happy to hear that you've gotten so much out of it. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Well I think unfortunately many of us have the stigma that it's only those who are in the most dire need of help that go get therapy. Many people don't realize. And it, and once I started sharing that I have a therapist, I started hearing from other people that they have a therapist and many top performers, many high achievers are seeing therapists. That's part of the reason they look so put together because they have that as high of importance as their physical health, as the food they put in their body as exercise,

Speaker 4: It is just as important. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3: And I th I think a big part of what it helps you do, and this is how I usually talk about it. Like, cause we'll go into companies and we'll do, uh, presentations around stress management, things like that. And as part of those, we'll recommend that people seek out therapy or coaching and we'll get this question a lot. Like, do I need therapy? It's kind of couched. Like, am I in bad enough shape that I need therapy? Do I actually have depression? Do I have an anxiety disorder? Do I have this label? Cause even some people really want to have a label and other people really don't want to have the label. Right. And I'll usually say, don't even think about it in those terms. It's more like, you know, all the right things, the right things to do to improve your stress. You know, like I can give you a list. I just gave you a list of things to do. If you look at that list and you go, I just can't bring myself to implement any of these changes to move myself in the right direction. That's when you should probably look for help from a therapist or a coach, because they're going to get in there with you. And they're going to say, here's the one you can try or this one. And they're going to provide that support in that structure. And maybe that, that friendly push to help you make those changes.

Speaker 1: It's certainly for me, one of the highlights of the week when I get a chance to check in and see the results on the other side, I mean, I've noticed a difference in all of my relationships and the way that I show up and how I feel internally in those interactions. So it's worked for me. Where can our audience find out more about what you do up there in the bay area?

Speaker 3: Yeah. So our clinic is called San Francisco stress and anxiety center. We are@sfstress.com like San Francisco, stress.com. Um, my name's Jonathan Horowitz. Um, and we have, we've got about 50 therapists in our practice and we have a handful of coaches as well. So, you know, if you're interested in doing teletherapy, then give us a ring and we can help you out. Now

Speaker 1: We love asking every guest what their X factor is. What is that trait or attribute that makes you extraordinary Jonathan?

Speaker 3: Huh? Clearly not my preparation.

Speaker 5: Um, you knew it was coming. Yeah.

Speaker 3: I didn't even think about that one. Um, I think what makes me, uh, I think actually my consistency in a, in a lot of ways, um, I was, I'm not naturally like this, but I was talking before about doing these practices like meditation, for example, and therapy and journaling and stuff like that. And so I'm thinking a lot about stress management today and I think it's taken me a lot of years to develop consistency in those kinds of activities, consistency, consistency in the habits that I know are good for me. But I think that, um, I've been able to do that. And that has enabled me to show up and be more present, whether I'm being a therapist or being a leader in the practice or in a place like this. And, uh, yeah, I think, and, and that's one of those things that everybody has access to. It's just a matter of putting effort toward building those kinds of habits.

Speaker 1: I love it. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Thank you guys. This

Speaker 3: Is great. I really appreciate it. [inaudible]

Speaker 1: Johnny. I know we've had a number of therapy sponsors on this show and we highly recommend therapy to help all of our listeners with their mental health. And it was so great to talk to our good friend, Jonathan, who has not only personally supported us, but is doing amazing things up in the bay area. For those struggling, with stress and anxiety,

Speaker 2: With everything going on right now, it is important to not only reflect, but have people that we can talk to so that we can avoid some of the traps that human nature and our own cognitive processes lay out for us and talking with Jonathan. It always makes me feel good because when I get wound up about things, he's one of those guys that I can talk to and realize I'm not the one who feels this way. I'm not doing anyone. Who's thinking this way. Others are in the same place. And that only goes to show and demonstrate just how much it is important to have the right people to talk to them.

Speaker 1: I know sometimes it's easy to think you could do it on your own. You can do everything. You just got to push harder, but it was one of the best decisions I made to get therapy this year from the stress center and coming out the other end. I now realize just how important managing that stress is in my life to my physical and mental health. So I couldn't think Jonathan Moore for stopping by now this week, shout out, goes to Joseph. Who's found himself in a new role at work. Joseph joined the X-Factor accelerator to improve his leadership skills. And he's admittedly an introvert and having an outward focus on leading a team is new to him. He's begun to implement some of the conversational pieces and has actually begun connecting with his new colleagues. He instantly saw results with his team members and he's excited for the transformation and the relationships that will blossom from him, unlocking his own X factor. Keep it up. Joseph we're rooting for you. Are you ready to unlock your X factor and reach your true potential apply today at unlock your X-Factor dot com?

Speaker 2: Could you do us in the entire art of term team, a huge favor. Could you head on over to iTunes and rate and review this podcast? It would mean the world to us helps others find the show and it helps us land incredible guests. The art

Speaker 1: Of charm podcast is produced by Michael Harold and Eric Montgomery. I hope everyone is enjoying their holiday weekend here in the states. I have a wonderful labor day. We will see you all next week.

Speaker 6: [inaudible] [inaudible].