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Speaker 1: I'm AAJ. And I'm Johnny now. Thank you everyone for tuning in let's kick off today's show today. We're speaking with Dr. Vicki. Medvac Dr. Medevac is the author of negotiate without fear, strategies, and tools to maximize your outcomes, which came out a few weeks ago. She's a master negotiator, Kellogg professor and the CEO of Medvec and associates, a consulting firm focused on high stakes negotiations and strategic decisions. We're going to talk with her today about eliminating the fear that impedes success in negotiations and the negotiation strategies that she has honed over decades, advising fortune 500 clients. And don't worry we're even in a breakdown, how you can negotiate your next salary. Raise. Welcome to the show Vicky. So happy you're here. Joining us, talking about how to be less fearful when it comes to negotiating.

Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me, Jay. I'm very excited to be with you today

Speaker 1: Now, Johnny, and I would love to know a little bit of your origin story and what drew you to negotiation?

Speaker 3: You know, it's funny. When I first graduated from college, I had a position at United way of America. I was selected as one of 10 people, 10 graduating seniors, who would work with the national, the international United way for one year and then work in a local United way chapter. And when I was doing that, I found that my passion was for the fundraising side of the United way. And I recognized I was really enjoying negotiation. So after fulfilling my duty of working for a full year for a local United way after my year with the international, I was recruited by a president of the university to lead fundraising for one of his colleges. And I started there doing a lot of fundraising, a lot of negotiation. And that's what really sparked my interest in going back and studying that as I got my PhD doing research in it, and then ultimately teaching it and advising many companies and organizations on very high stakes deals.

Speaker 2: Anything that you can point to in negotiation that stick out to you that you really enjoy because when most people think about negotiation and we'll get to this, all of a sudden they get a pit in their stomach, they start to get nauseous. They don't want to deal with it. And we always hear much like cells. You know, there's always these people like I don't like salespeople. They're always too pushy. That's why I'm not a sales guy. And then there's the same thing with negotiation. I don't like negotiation. Everyone here on the other side is a big jerk. And then it's always comes down to the same thing, which is sells. And negotiation is going to be an integral part of your life. If you have a mission, if you have reached in your life, because you're looking to acquire things, you're looking to achieve things. And so you have to get out there and make things happen. And in order to make things happen, you have to deal with other people. So either you're selling your ideas or you're negotiating to enable and to get your ideas in the play.

Speaker 3: I couldn't agree more Johnny. And in fact, I would argue that that pit in your stomach, that you feel that is the fear that I tackle in my new book, negotiate without fear. I want to take the fear out of negotiations and allow people to negotiate in more confident and comfortable ways, because I would absolutely agree with you. That negotiation is critical to so many parts of our life. And I actually believe that when you can in Bolden yourself and empower yourself to be able to negotiate, you actually create a much more satisfied life. Because I think a lot of times we're dissatisfied with situations. We don't like what's happening. We don't like how we were treated. We don't like what someone is doing. And if we recognize that we can change that through our negotiation capabilities, we feel more empowered and more satisfied. So I agree with you that getting the fear out of negotiation is critical to leading to satisfaction.

Speaker 1: And I believe there's no worse feeling than being taken advantage of because you don't know how to negotiate. We've all kicked ourselves for paying too much for something, for not negotiating our salary and then finding out a coworker or a peer who's less talented than us is making more money simply because they asked for it. So we love looking at fear and overcoming fear and changing our attitude, gaining knowledge. And of course the last piece is gaining experience. I want to tackle the first one, that mindset and the attitude going into negotiation, because that lays the groundwork for how it is going to go in that room.

Speaker 3: And I think one of the biggest fears is being taken advantage of, I think another fear is I'm afraid. The other side will walk away. I'm afraid I'll damage the relationship. I'm afraid that I will get a bad deal. I think there are so many fears that impede our ability to negotiate in confident ways. And that's where we want to give you strategy to help you to be able to take that fear out of negotiation and be able to appropriately go into that situation in a really confident way.

Speaker 1: And when it comes to attitude, and we talk a lot about this when it comes to socializing, what you think about before you enter that room comes into play when you're actually in with someone. And I believe it's the same with negotiation. We have to prepare ourselves before we even enter that dialogue.

Speaker 3: I would argue that preparation is the single most important element in negotiation. And that preparation actually gives you power in negotiation. The better prepared negotiator always does better. I want to get well prepared. And I think a lot of times people would agree with that ADJ, but they don't necessarily know what it looks like to be really well prepared to negotiate. Like what's involved in that. And I would argue it involves number one, thinking about the other side and ensuring that you're really putting the right issues on the table. So I always encourage people to think about their objectives in this situation. What are you trying to achieve with the other side? What objectives do you have, and really ensure that for every single objective you have at least one, if not more than one negotiable issue, things that you will negotiate, things you will discuss. So getting prepared by putting the right issues on the table, doing the right analysis and creating a plan for your discussion allows you to approach that better, prepared, more confident, and certainly positioned to get a better deal.

Speaker 2: Well, then it's certainly important. And I, and, and you're right. I don't think many people or people who are, or they don't have the experience in negotiation. They don't, they know what leverage looks like. They don't understand what that power is going to be. And I think they tend to think of it as, as something that they can leverage the hold over the other person to get their way. And that's just not what it is. This is, uh, I think healthy, proper negotiations are going to be looked at as a win-win. And in order to get to a win-win, we need both parties to feel comfortable. They can't have fear to come to the table and discuss how to compromise what sacrifices will be made and what things they can leverage in order to find that win-win. And of course, you've done a wonderful job in illustrating all of those things in the book.

Speaker 3: Well, thank you, Johnny. And you know, when you say the word leverage, I think it's important to sort of unpack that word because I think a lot of people use it and don't really think about what they mean by leverage that the sense of I got it or not, but they don't really dig into what is it. And I would argue when they're talking about it, they're usually talking about two very distinctive and really different things. One piece of leverage is often thinking through what is my best outside option. My best outside option is my biggest source of power in any negotiation, right? If I'm buying a house, my biggest source of power is the other house I would buy. If I didn't buy this house, if I'm negotiating for a job, my biggest source of power is the other job I would take. If I didn't take this job, my best outside alternative is my biggest source of power.

Speaker 3: But I think that when they use the word leverage, a lot of times what they're confounding is also this analysis of what are the other side's options. And in fact, when I look at and really analyze the weakness of the other sides alternatives, that's what I should use to drive my goal for the negotiation. So I shoot for something based on the weakness of the other side's options. My bottom line is based on the weakness of my own option. So I want to unpack that word leverage because I think that too often, we combine those and it can be that I have a situation where I have really, really, really strong outside options. And so to you, or it could be that I have weak outside options, but you have weak outside options too. And then I could have a super ambitious goal, even though I don't have a particularly attractive bottom line.

Speaker 3: So I think it's important to think through that. And you used another concept called win-win and I think what you're talking about, there is such a critical idea, which is we want to identify those trade-offs things that are important to you. That aren't as important to me. Things that are really important to me that are not as difficult for you. And I always think about the negotiation is trying to really make sure that we optimize all of those potential trade-offs in the book. I talk about an issue matrix to help you lay out all of the negotiable issues along a two-dimensional piece, to think about the relative importance of the issue to each side, and as I'm helping and guiding people in negotiations, I always have that matrix in my mind. And I'm thinking about how do I trade off those issues to get more of what I want on issues that matter the most to me. So I think that's what win-win looks like. It's about identifying those trade-offs

Speaker 2: Stop right there. Hey, you check this out. We are looking for case studies and an email last week. We asked you to imagine yourself with unlimited confidence, a life without any insecurity or self doubt, what did you envision?

Speaker 1: Maybe you see yourself striking up conversations in public without fear of being judged or criticized by others. Maybe you see yourself speaking on stages, starting a business, or asking for the raise. You so desperately want. Maybe you see yourself approaching people you're attracted to or hanging out with groups of new friends, whatever dream scenario you're imagining. What have

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Speaker 1: You tell me what you want to accomplish, and we'll make it happen for you. Text me case study at 9 1 7 7 2 0 4 1 0 4. That's right. Text message. Me personally, plus one, if you're international 9 1 7 7 2 0 4, 104 case study. I think what a lot of people get tripped up on is they're a little too assumptive in what the win for the other party would be. It's very easy from our vantage point to know what our wins are. And we talk a lot about empathy and bringing that to the table in our communication. And of course, thinking through what the other opportunities are for the other person is helpful. But oftentimes we don't spend enough time asking questions. We make these broad assumptions and it can actually keep us off the mark of what could be a potential win for the other party, simply by discussing it and being open to questioning them a little bit more and hearing from them.

Speaker 1: So for example, you know, over the pandemic, we had to leave our office and we had to look for another office. And in looking for another office, I was very concerned about signing a year long lease. I didn't know what the pandemic was going to hold. I didn't know if we were going to continue downsizing or things would start back up. So I was very nervous about getting another year long plus lease, but of course, landlords, at that time, they wanted that security. If knowing that I'm signing a year long lease because they have the same concerns. Are you not going to be there six, eight months from now? And if I just went into the negotiation, assuming that I had to give a year-long lease, I wouldn't have been able to come to the conclusion in negotiation with our landlord, that by simply prepaying a few months, allying has concerns around.

Speaker 1: Are we going to be good for the money? Actually opened up an opportunity to shorten the lease and build trust in our relationship without having to extend it for a year. But the only reason I knew that is because I was asking questions around what they're looking for in a tenant, what type of businesses had rented from them previously to gain that valuable insight. And when we talked to a lot of our clients who are worried and nervous around negotiating, they tend to focus inward and think about themselves. And they don't spend a lot of time asking questions of the other party.

Speaker 3: I think they don't often ask questions of the other party. I think they often don't even focus on the other party or what the other party's interests are. So I would argue that one of your first objectives in every negotiation is to address the other sides pressing business needs. And the reason I like to lead with that objective is because it forces me to think about what's important to them. Why is that so important to them? What's driving them? What metrics are they being evaluated by? I think that's important in work negotiations, but I also think it's important even in personal negotiations with your contractor or with someone who is doing work on your car. I think it's really important to think through what are their most pressing needs. What are their underlying interests? Your landlord's interest was in ensuring that you didn't disappear, that you weren't there one month and gone the next and that that could be allayed.

Speaker 3: That fear could be allayed by either having a long-term lease or by getting a big chunk of money up front that might cause them to feel like you're going to stick around. So I think it's really a great example of understanding the other sides pressing needs and making sure that I'd put issues on the table that addressed those needs. But what's shocking is how often people don't even do the research to know what the other side's needs are. They don't think about the other side. They think about themselves. And I think that leads to two mistakes. Number one, I don't negotiate the right issues, but number two, I build the wrong rationale. I build a rationale. That's all about what I want when I need, because I want it. And I always say, when you're negotiating, you should be a pronoun checker. You should not use the pronoun. I, you should use the pronoun view, right? Cause you want to focus on the other side, not yourself. So I would say, check your pronouns and check the first line of your script. If my first line of my script has to do with me, I have a problem with my first line of my script has to do with them. I'm in better shape. So watch your lines and watch your pronouns.

Speaker 2: Anytime that somebody, as we were talking about the pit in your stomach earlier, the minute that happens a minute, fear kicks in anxiety, anything like that, we immediately go inward because we're trying to deal with that, those emotions, that pain, but yet it's all coming from the same place. If we've gotten used to identifying that as fear or anxiety we'll, then whatever we're looking at through that lens is going to be scary to us. If we're looking at that and define it as that's excitement for walking into the unknown. Now I'm looking at whatever I'm going into through that lens. And that'll allow me to get excited to ask the right questions, to figure out what their wants and needs are so that I can get what it is that I need. I

Speaker 3: Think a lot of we can learn a lot with research. We do before we go to the meeting. Um, if it is a meeting with someone from a public company, I could have looked at their last three records of analysts calls. If it's a, if it's a discussion with a company that's private, I could have looked at what they talked about in the last investor conference. If it's a meeting with someone who's in a particular industry, I could Google what's happening in that industry. If it's a meeting with the single individual, I could look them up on LinkedIn, know a little bit more about them, know what's going on with them. And I think the more that I know, the easier it is for me to understand and uncover their interests. I think sometimes we don't do our preparation upfront and that leads to a far worse interaction in the midst of the discussion.

Speaker 1: Now you brought up in that, that there are ways that we could even start off the negotiation by soliciting some of that information from the other side. Do you have some examples of some questions you like to use if maybe we're talking to an employer and it's not really clear to us what the win or the goals are for them.

Speaker 3: So I'd like to first start by using all publicly available information. I think it's rude to go in and ask questions about a company when I could have done my homework and learned it instead. Um, so I always say, you know, if you're asking about what their objectives are over the coming year, and they talked about that in their last analyst call, you've just made yourself look really bad. So I think it starts with do using publicly available information. And then I actually like to ask a question by referencing something I heard in publicly available information. Like I heard your CEO talked about this challenge. Tell me more about that and how that's affecting your business. So that as I ask questions, it's very clear that I've done my research, that I respect them, that I, I value their time and I'm not going to ask them to cover things that I could have found out first. But I want to dig more deeply into things that I'm interested in because I want to know more about their business or know more about them as an individual. I think that's a really key piece is to do your work upfront.

Speaker 1: I love that clarification angle it's nuanced, but again, it puts you on an even position with the other person, instead of them feeling like, well, why am I even negotiating with you if you couldn't Google some basic information?

Speaker 3: No, exactly. You couldn't, you couldn't look it up. You couldn't learn about me in the world of, you know, tons of digital information, you know, nothing. So I think that's exactly right.

Speaker 2: Want to bring up an interesting point here as well. And this, this, this it's, it's apparent to me in speaking with you and I want our audience. If there's a listening to this on the, on a podcast and they're not able to see the video, I want them to understand that when they think of negotiations in a hardcore negotiation, they think of people like Chris Voss and FBI negotiators, all that stuff. And we're talking to Vicky here. He was in a little, uh, pink shirt and pearls around the glasses, but yet all the negotiating powers and all the, the negotiations as you put in your book, it's hard. I think it would be hard for people to understand how you're able to do that. But it is the prep that you're willing to put in that puts all the Braun on your shoulders, going into the, into the negotiations.

Speaker 3: Right? And I would argue that strategy is really essential here. And I think that too often, people over rely on their personality to carry the negotiation and they don't do the work or leverage the right strategy. So I think that some people feel like I'm a great negotiator because I'm very outgoing and I happen to be really outgoing and very competent. But the reality is is that if I only rely upon my personality, I'm not going to do as well. I think that negotiation skill can be taught. It's not something that is just natural. I can learn to be a better negotiator. I control my ability to learn, to negotiate in more effective ways, regardless of whether I'm introverted or extroverted, I can do it because it really comes down to using the right strategy. Many extroverts, um, are often over-reliant on their personality and don't prepare and don't build the right strategy and they get taken image up.

Speaker 1: A lot of that strategy is based on human psychology. And if you understand cognitive distortions in the way, the human mind works, you have a better strategy going into it. For example, as humans, we have a greater fear of loss than anything gained. So in negotiation, if you're starting off negotiating around something that the other person is going to lose, they're not going to want to hear about everything else they're gaining. They're only going to hold onto their losses and you are going to be at a roadblock in your negotiating. But if you don't have a strategy that's based on human psychology, you could make that mistake. You could fall into that trap and you list some traps that even expert negotiators fall into in their negotiation. So what are some of these traps that poor strategy leads to

Speaker 3: Love to talk to you about some traps that experts run into. But first I have to tell you ha that I love it, that you just mentioned research done by one of my coauthor. So Danny Kahneman who developed prospect theory with Amos Tversky is actually a coauthor of mine. And it's one of my greatest sources of pride to have Danny. Conoman the psychologist who won the Nobel prize in economics, um, focused on in this session. I love that you brought up prospect theory and this idea that the people are risk averse in the domain of gains and risk seeking in the domain of losses. And that absolutely is a strategy I talk in my book is how do you leverage the right framing when you're building your, the rationale. If I want you to do something new or do something different, move off the status quo, I would not want to talk about the benefit of doing that or the advantage to you.

Speaker 3: I would want to talk about the risk score under the competitor pressure we're experiencing the threat we have, right? I wouldn't want to use those last frames to move you. And that is very, very critical in negotiation because that is huge psychological principle that underlies influence and negotiation involves a lot of influence strategy. So I love it that you raise that, but you asked me a question and raising it about the traps that experts run into. So I would argue that there are a number of traps that experts encounter. They snare experts because people do it so often I work with a lot of expert negotiators. You know, I train CEOs in negotiation. I advise CEOs on very high stakes deals. I work with heads of business development, heads of sales, people who negotiate all the time, investment banking partners, there's private equity partners, people who do deals every day.

Speaker 3: And one of the things I find is that a lot of times they are snared by a couple of key traps. The first one is that they often negotiate the wrong deal because they have a tendency to negotiate kind of what standard, what do we typically discuss rather than thinking about their objectives and really allowing themselves to put the right issues on the table. And as you mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, if I don't put the right issues on the table, we can't optimize and maximize the deal. So that's a critical trap. The second trap is probably going to surprise you though. The second trap is that experts often don't set ambitious goals. They think about what do we normally get? And they don't consider the weaknesses of the other side's alternatives and establish their goal. Based on those weeks. This is the third trap that I focus on all the time is people don't know, tell a very good story when they negotiate, they go in and they talk about themselves.

Speaker 3: As we discussed before they focus on what they want, because they want it because they need it. They don't tell a very compelling story. And the story they should tell should be a story about how their differentiators address, the other sides pressing business needs. Right? That's the story you want to tell, how do my differentiators address your pressing business needs? And then I would like to use my offer to actually reinforce that story. And a lot of times experts will use a single offer. Whereas in my book, I really propose it use a multiple offer approach that you come to the table with three offers rather than one it's called a multiple equivalent simultaneous offer the name isn't that important. But the concept is I want to give you multiple offers and use to reinforce my message. That is

Speaker 2: An incredible list. And I want to go through these because it's going to be difficult for some of our people in the audience to know what that means, especially in this first one. So what does it mean to be arguing or negotiating the wrong deal and what is an example of that for our audience?

Speaker 3: So imagine that I am purchasing something and I'm just negotiating on price, or I'm selling you something and I'm only negotiating price. That would be an example of the wrong issues, but probably an expert would know not just to negotiate price, but I see a lot of expert negotiators in professional service firms negotiate the scope and staffing. That's all they talk about these scope and staffing. That's also the wrong deal because that doesn't take into account that one of their objectives is to differentiate themselves. And I can't in any way, differentiate myself. If I only talked about the scope and staffing, another objective is to ensure that I'm addressing their pressing business needs. And maybe my scope does that to some extent, but what about all the other issues I could put on the table to address their needs? So that's what I mean by the first trap, we don't think hard enough about what we're trying to achieve. And I would say, I always want to address the other sides pressing business needs. I always want to have an objective of building the relationship and I always want to have an objective of differentiating myself, my product, my service, my company. And then I also have an, an objective of maximizing my outcome. Those four objectives are the big four they're in my head all the time. I have others in other situations, but those big four are driving me as I'm going into that situation to think about putting the right issues on the table.

Speaker 1: And part of what I'm hearing in all of this is the level of creativity that we have to bring. You know, much of what we're talking about here is a lack of creativity is just following. What's been done in the past. Assuming that it's just going to work in the future. And as we know in business, everyone's objectives are changing and shifting. We just went through a major shift with a pandemic. And if you stuck with your negotiating strategy, the same deals that were working in 2019, aren't working today. So how do you work to bring that creativity to the table to become an expert negotiator?

Speaker 3: So I think that what I would say is that the strategy remains the same, but the objectives vary. So the other sides pressing business needs have changed recently. So for example, if you think about many companies, they lost supply in the midst of the pandemic, they didn't have the right relationships with their suppliers. They didn't have enough options on their suppliers. And so I would say that their objectives have changed. They now want to increase the security of their supply. They want to make sure they build redundancy into their supply chain. They want to ensure that they have multiple options. They have a different set of objectives, but I would still have the same strategies of putting the right issues on the table, ensuring that I'm building my power setting, an ambitious goal, those would remain constant, but the objectives would be different.

Speaker 2: Being able to see and in scope, what other companies need in order to run in order to maximize their profits and to order to run fluently through whatever it's going to be. And, and there's several things that are going to need to be there. They're going to need a constant supply of customers. So promotion and publicity of and testimonials of their services will certainly benefit them. Um, certainly as you mentioned, supply lines, keeping whatever they need in order to do their job coming in fully, and then being able to, uh, also be exposed to other people who need those services as well.

Speaker 3: I agree. And I think that goes back to what we were talking about when AIJ, and I were discussing making sure that we're really thinking about the other side, taking off this focus on ourselves, focusing on them instead, and their needs, and then ensuring that we're having the right discussion. And a lot of those issues that you just identified Johnny would actually go into in our issue, matrix what we refer to as the storytelling quadrants, those are quadrant, that's a new set of issues that are super important to the other side. And easy for me to offer up are easy for me to provide. And I want to use those storytelling issues to get more of what I want on what we often refer to as the contentious issues, things that are important to both of us too often when people approach negotiation, they're fixated only on contentious issues like the price. And they're not thinking about the storytelling issues. And I would argue you can't get as much on those contentious issues if you don't have the storytelling issues on the table, because you have nothing to use to get what you want, but you also are more likely to damage the relationship because you have no ability to focus your story. On the other side, if you're just focused on things that you want. I

Speaker 2: Think that's important to remember that we're just not looking to get over on the other person and get the best deal for herself. We're looking to build and continue a relationship so that we can refer other businesses and work together to do the things that we need. And it's unfortunate because when you watch certain shows maybe like shark tank or something from television, well, they're going to ham it up to make it contentious, to make it more dramatic than it that a healthy negotiation actually is. So we get this burned into our brain of, of art, this and stubbornness, and we need to be stiff here. We can't lose here and things like the art of the deal and all of this stuff that gives a false sense of thought the whole negotiation in itself, the practice of

Speaker 3: It. Right? And that's why in my book, I tried to share lots of stories. I'm hundreds of stories in my book about companies and CEOs and other senior leaders, but also everyday people negotiating in all kinds of situations to give you some real life examples of how to be effective in those situations, what it looks like and how to ensure that you are really negotiating in a way that allows you to build the relationship at the same time that you're maximizing your outcome. I don't think you have to sacrifice your relationship to have a great outcome. And I don't think you have to sacrifice your outcome to have a great relationship. I think if I use the right strategy, I can achieve both, but I don't think people focus enough on the right strategies, putting the right issues on the table, leaving myself enough room to maneuver and concede in the discussion, making that first offering, giving you multiple options rather than a single one. All of those are strategies that allow me to build the relationship and get what I want. One

Speaker 2: Of the strategies that I enjoyed reading in the book was when you were negotiating putting a pool in the backyard. And so, as we're talking about supply lines and all this other stuff, this gives the listener an idea that you have an inner workings of other people's businesses, but I would, I would guess you don't know much about masonry on Lee and hardscaping a building a bull, but you use their competition to gather, to gather the information that you needed to go into negotiations. And I thought that was just brilliant.

Speaker 3: Well, thank you, Johnny. And I have to tell you, I enjoy swimming in that pool is, um, but one of the things I would say is I really believe that you can build strategy and skill and that it's actually important to practice it in the everyday world. There's one example of negotiating in a bakery. There's an example of negotiating with the pool suppliers. There's an example of negotiating in a department store. I think it's important to encourage your listeners to negotiate in the everyday world to practice so that they're more equipped and confident when they go into a high stakes negotiation like negotiating for themselves at work. And in fact, I know that's one of the things people fear the most. So in, in the book, in every content chapter, there's at least one section and sometimes two or three sections that focus on applying the strategies to negotiate for yourself because that's an area where people have a lot of fear, but I also will apply the strategies to high stakes business transactions, buying a company, selling a company, negotiating with the customer. Um, we apply them in all of places, but I think the best place to practice them is in the everyday world. So I love that you liked my pool example because it's one of those great examples of using this strategy, um, and practicing it, but also getting a great pool.

Speaker 1: Another cognitive distortion that I think trips people up a lot is they believe that negotiations are just logical and analytical and they don't realize how much emotion and storytelling play a role in negotiating. We will use logic and analysis after the fact to rationalize the emotional decisions we're making in our life. We may not believe that that decision was made on emotion, but that is what the science and psychology show. So how do you see storytelling playing a role in negotiation? Because I'm sure for many of our listeners, that's one, that's a little unique and they may not have heard

Speaker 3: Of before. I definitely think story telling plays a role. I believe that negotiation is about emotion and rationality. And I think you would be foolish to believe that rationality supersedes emotion every single day, people walk away from perfectly rational deals. They walk away because they're angry. They walk away because they want to get back. At the other side, they walk away for emotional reasons. So I think it's really, really important that when we prepare to negotiate, we think about managing emotion. And I believe that that occurs at two levels. First, I have to think about managing my own emotions, my own emotion, right? Because emotions are contagious. There's something called emotional contagion. So if I'm calm, you're more likely to be calm. And if I get angry, you're going to get angry. If I raise my voice, you'll raise your voice. So I want to recognize that I needed to control my own emotion to help the other side and control theirs.

Speaker 3: But the second thing I have to do is to really think about managing the other side's emotional reaction. And one of the ways I manage their reaction is by creating a story that focuses on them. A second thing I do is leave myself room to concede because people like to see me concede and they feel better about it. A third thing I do is give them multiple offers because people love choice and they feel like they're in control when they have choice. But a fourth thing I think is really critical in managing their emotional reactions is to deploy storytelling. So I can tell good stories to provoke that availability bias is the name, but that reaction that's going to lead you to believe that these things are likely to occur. And I can use that to drive your reaction. So I do believe negotiation is about emotion and rationality. And then we got to learn to control our own emotion and manage the other sides of emotion easier said than done for some negotiation easier said than done, but absolutely a focal point of my book, because I believe firmly that that's a key piece of it.

Speaker 1: And I love what you said earlier because we believe the same practicing even in low stakes situations helps you when you enter high stakes situations in all of our coaching programs involve that even if it may seem such low stakes, that I can't possibly be learning negotiating with the baker, you absolutely can learn in that context. And these are situations where we often only think the value exchange is us handing our credit card or our cash over. There is a lot of value that you offer to every business that has nothing to do with the transaction of cash or your credit card. And if you can start to think about these things in those small of negotiations, you're wiring your brain to be more successful in the high stakes negotiation.

Speaker 3: In fact, AIJ, I encourage people who are hiring salespeople or procurement executives or business development executives, people, you know, if you're hiring a deal maker, right? I would encourage you in your interview to ask a question, which is, tell me about a negotiation you've done in your everyday life in the past two weeks. And if you couldn't come up with one, I wouldn't hire you because the reality is people who practice in their everyday lives become far better at negotiating on behalf of your company. So I fully subscribed to your belief that practice in low stakes environments creates better performance in high stakes situations. And I think that particularly for some of your listeners who may have a negotiation about themselves coming up, that you could practice and gain some confidence in the everyday world. And you'll be much more confident going into that high stakes negotiation.

Speaker 1: So let's talk about the one that probably strikes the most fear in our listeners and that's negotiating your salary, whether that's starting a new job or whether that's being in a role for a long time and getting that great performance review and seeing others around you get raises and promotions. This is a moment that science has shown has a dramatic impact and compounding over our career and really sets the top earners apart from those who are just average or below average earners. And of course there's a lot of science in the way that sex plays a role in this and that men are more likely to negotiate than women, which often impacts their earnings. So let's talk about how we can approach negotiating for our salary to get what we deserve while at the same time creating that win for our employer.

Speaker 3: So I agree that it is absolutely one of the most feared negotiations, and that's why in the book and every single chapter, there's this section on how to negotiate for yourself, take this and use that when you're doing this for yourself. Um, and I think that it's really important that we give people confidence because as you said, women are less likely to negotiate for themselves than men are, but many men do not negotiate for themselves either. So if there are lots of people who are uncomfortable for themselves, and if you were to ask me what are a few key pieces to that negotiation? The first one I would offer up is that I never had the discussion purely about my salary. I would argue there's no such thing as a salary negotiation, there's an employment discussion. And that employment discussion involves a lot of issues outside of salary.

Speaker 3: So it's absolutely focused on the first objective, which is addressing the other sides, pressing business needs. How do my differentiators address their needs? What am I uniquely positioned to help them with? And so I always say, you want to start by thinking about the other side's needs. And I often will liken it to a training and say that the car, the engine, the engine is the other sides pressing business needs. And the next car back is your differentiators address, their needs and the car after that might be a bet on how one of you, your differentiators would actually achieve some measurable goal for them over the coming year that might be tied to a performance basis. And the next car back, our, how the rest of my differentiators will address their needs and the caboose it's attached to this train. But it's at the far end.

Speaker 3: The caboose is where my salary is. The caboose is holding my salary. It's holding the moving expenses. It's holding the start date. They're all there. They're all a part of the conversation, but the story is never about the caboose. The story is always about the engine, because that keeps the train moving forward successfully. If you start to make the story about the caboose, the train starts to go backward. It falls off the tracks, the whole thing falls apart. So you've got to make sure that the story focuses on that. I'm not on you. And you want to make sure that the story is about the entire package of how you we're going to do something in particular for them. I've got a great story that highlights it. If you have time for a quick story. Okay. So I had a woman who was in my women's senior leadership program at Kellogg.

Speaker 3: This is a program for very high potential women. And our goal is to keep them in and move them up to the C-suite. And this woman was very close to the top. She was literally reporting to the CEO and she would eventually become a CEO, but she was going to quit her job. And she came to my program on the very first day. She told me she was quitting because she was so sick of traveling. She was traveling all the time. She was traveling so often that her children refused to call her mom. They would only call her by her first name. So she was, she was quitting and I have a real passion and I'm keeping women in and moving them up to the most senior levels. And my first thing that I said to her is, you know, quitting doesn't have an expiration date.

Speaker 3: It's not like if you don't quit today, you can't quit tomorrow. So why don't you first go and try to change the situation before you just quit, but that you mentioned gender differences AIJ and that's a big gender difference. Men almost always negotiate before they leave women often get frustrated and leave without negotiating. You should never leave without negotiating. You should always see if I could try to improve the situation, make it better, make it what I want before I just depart. So I convinced her that she would go in and negotiate. Now, a lot of people faced with that would probably go in and talk about how their kids needed them home more often, or how they needed to travel less or how they needed to be in the office more. But that would all be about me, myself and I, and not about the company and their needs.

Speaker 3: So I said to her, you know, why would it be good for the company if you were traveling less often? And what was uncovered is that this company had just had two drugs recently approved by the FDA in really rapid succession. And this biotech was a relatively small biotech, no one there had ever brought multiple drugs to market at the same time, except for her. She had done it because she had worked in big pharma before she went to this biotech. So she went in and rather than saying, my kids need me and Homer often she said, you know, I know that our highest goal right now is to get these two products to market. By this date, the analysts are expecting this. Our entire share price is resting on our ability to get these two drugs to market by this day. And I am confident that I'm uniquely positioned to be able to do that.

Speaker 3: I've done it before, but to do that, I need to be here every single day. Working with the team, the realities are lots of other people who could call it our customers as well as I could, but I can get those two drugs to market by this date and meet the analyst's expectations. And what she was able to do was to get almost no travel. She also got a promotion and a pay raise at the same time, right? Why did she do that? Because she made the story, focus on them. That's why the first car is not about you. It's not about your goals. It's about the company's needs. And if you start an employment discussion based on the company's needs, rather than yourself, you will succeed. And you might think that's only true for someone senior who's reporting to the CEO. But in my book, I've got an example of that for a high school student working in an ice cream shop. So the reality is you love from ice cream shop as a senior at high school to CEO contender. And that issue applies. It's true for every one of us. Let's

Speaker 2: Dig into that for a second, because we've talked about the differences in negotiating and gender, but what about generational? Now? You had brought up the, the, the student who worked at the ice cream shop. And you also in your book had talked about helping some of these companies replace their older, um, uh, employees with younger staff. And so all day, every day, I think everyone has been, been bothered about what is wrong with these millennials. And we have certainly had our fair share of young folks working for us. And we have seen some things there. So in your work, what have you've noticed?

Speaker 3: So one of the things I've noticed that I would say is probably the biggest generational difference in negotiation is that the communication channel that people select to use to negotiate. And I always say, say it, don't send it and see them when you say it, right? Say it, don't send it and see them when you say it that I want to seek synchronicity. When I negotiate, I want to be in a synchronous channel. So I would love to be face-to-face. And if I could be face-to-face, that is absolutely bar none face-to-face in-person sitting in the room is the best. But when I can't do that, I should take some lessons from what we've learned through the pandemic, in the pandemic, the technology platforms to communicate virtually really improved dramatically. So there's no reason now for me to just be on the phone, I can see you when I say it in a virtual platform with my video on. So I want to say it, don't send it, see the one you say it. If I can't be in a room, I want to be out of virtual platform. And that's a big generational difference because a lot of younger people love to negotiate via text or negotiate by email, um, or leave each other text messages, and that's not appropriate. We want to, we want to seek synchronicity. And

Speaker 1: That's the key. We can't get the synchronicity of the nonverbal communication, the signals of the emotional intent that the other person is feeling or thinking in that moment, if we're not in the room, if we're not on the zoom, if we're not in real time, sure. It is easier to send an email. I get it. It's easier to sit there. Think through your thoughts, list them all out, send it to your peers, ask your dad for his opinion and get that draft ready and hit send. But that's not going to lead to the success you're looking for in your career. It's actually going to set the wrong tone. It's going to tell the other person that you're negotiating with, that you don't have the confidence to be in the room to ask for what you want to state your needs and your desires, and understand where they're coming from and actually negotiate because sending your needs and your desires is not negotiating. Sending an email is not negotiating. It is a back and forth and a dialogue to reach an agreement.

Speaker 3: Absolutely. It's not a conversation if I send an email. Um, and one of the things that I would say is that people often think it's easier, but in fact, it takes a lot longer. So we actually have research that shows that if I am not in a synchronous channel, the negotiation will actually take a lot longer. People feel like email is a convenient way to negotiate because I can start whenever I want to am. I can start 10 in the morning. I could start midnight. I can start. But in negotiation, starting is not the goal. Closing is the goal. And the distance between start and close is longer. If I select an asynchronous channel, if I'm not seeking synchronicity. So say it, don't send it. See the, when you say it, get in front of them or get on video with them and make sure that you can pick up on those. Non-verbals watch their reactions and use all of that information as you negotiate. And I want to say,

Speaker 2: Just because of the, where there is contention, and there are emotions involved because in negotiator, there is going to be emotions and we have to be able to rise above them. You just send out an email and then go to sleep and hoping that you're going to get your raised in the morning. All that does is fire up your boss, who now has to stew over an email overnight and not get any sleep. Do you think he's coming in the next day, happy to start negotiating. He's going to be livid. Well, we

Speaker 1: Shared this story on the show of a former team member who did exactly that right before a holiday break. So sent an email with a list of demands right before we were all heading out on holiday for Christmas break. Everyone had flights out and put a deadline on me making that decision, not thinking at all about the impact it would have on the business. Not thinking at all from a personal level that, Hey, we're all heading out on vacation to see our family. This is certainly something that can wait until January 1st, when we're back in the office. And with that exploding offer, did not even realize or leave an opportunity for us to have a face-to-face communication. And I said, unfortunately, the decision was, we're just going to let you go. Because this shows that you actually don't care about the role you're in or the role you're asking for you. Haven't thought about us in any way. You haven't thought about the business's goals and how you fit in. You're simply making your demands and making them in. You think in a way that's going to be more compelling because you took time to craft the email. You sent it to your business, coach, everyone read through it and gave you the thumbs up. Not realizing what it's like to be on the receiving end of that message.

Speaker 3: Exactly. You know, I make my students repeat a mantra after me all the time. I make them say never, ever, never, ever, ever, never, ever email your employer about your employment situation. If you are about to hit, send, stop, and don't do it right, because there is no upside to doing that. We want to be in those synchronous channels. And I talk in the book a lot about the importance of when I'm negotiating for myself and when I'm negotiating in any situation, I want to make sure that I'm in a channel, as Johnny said, that allows me to manage the emotional reaction and to ensure that I can maintain that relationship. And I'm better able to do that when I can hear the other side and react immediately to the other side, then when I'm in an asynchronous channel, I think so often people believe that that email is crystal clear.

Speaker 3: And I would argue that's because they're suffering from something I've done research on, which is called this illusion of transparency. We overestimate the extent to which people can sort of read our thoughts and feelings and emotion, right? And when I'm reading the email, the important thing is I'm reading it with like all of this sound around it, right? It's like, I hear the orchestra and it's like this beautiful statement. And when they're reading the words, it's like word after word after word, right? It's like, it's like nothing. There's no other sound. There's no message. And I am not being conveyed in the same way as if I spoke to you. So say it, don't send it, see them when you say it, keep that in mind.

Speaker 1: Now, as we wrap the book is full of tons of great examples and anecdotes. What were some of the most surprising negotiables that you encountered in your research or putting the book together?

Speaker 3: So my book is actually based on a lot of research, but it's also based on a lot of experience. So more than 20 years of advising CEOs and other senior leaders on high stakes deals, a lot of experience advising individuals who are trying to negotiate for themselves. And probably one of the biggest surprises I encountered is how incredibly afraid people are to begin the interaction to start. And so they often don't negotiate. So they quit without negotiating. They leave their job, but never tried to change it. They are really, really angry at a supplier and they swear they'll never use them again. They get really, really mad at their landlord and they move out. I think it's so amazing how people are often so dissatisfied, but do nothing to try to change the situation while they're in it. And instead they regret and languish it afterward. I'm a big believer in taking action and trying to change it. So I always teach my students and my clients that virtually everything is negotiable and that you should negotiate to improve your satisfaction, that you should take it on, try to change it because you can often change it and be more satisfied

Speaker 1: I love that. And that's great advice. We love asking every guest as we wrap what their X factor is, what is it that makes you extraordinary? What do you think your X factor

Speaker 3: Is Vicky? So I think by X factor is probably my public speaking ability. It allows me to be very confident myself. I know a lot of people have a lot of fear about public speaking, but I have this knowledge that no one knows that you made a mistake because no one knows what you were planning to say. And so when I keep that in my mind, it makes me much more confident. And that competence as a speaker allows me to express myself in lots of different forums. I do a lot of big sessions for companies and senior leaders. I do a lot of discussions with people and I'm really confident with that, but I would say that that public speaking ability also is why it took me so long to write the book because I'm a confident speaker, but I don't love writing. And so it took me a long time to make the decision, to have the discipline, to write the book that I'm super excited that it's now out, um, and that it's available to help share the secrets and successes of my clients over more than 20 years.

Speaker 2: Just understand. It's one of the best books that I have read on negotiations, and we have read and have done a lot of research on this very topic for the show. And I found it incredibly enjoyable and all the examples, there was so much stuff that was popping out. And I thought that you did a great job with those examples, just sharing. Here's how the research works and, and, and, and it just made it seem fun.

Speaker 3: Well, Johnny, I really appreciate that. I mean, an endorsement from someone who's read a lot of books on negotiation means a lot to me. Thank you very much for that. And where can

Speaker 1: Our audience find out more about the work that you do? So

Speaker 3: You can visit me on my website, which is, uh, MedTech and associates.com. You can certainly join me on LinkedIn. I would love to be connected to you. And if you're interested in getting the book, you can get the book on Amazon or on Barnes and noble or at your local bookstore. Awesome. Thank you, Vicky. Thank you very much. And thank you for inviting me to join you and your listeners. What a great conversation by really enjoy listening to you. And I loved being able to talk to you today.

Speaker 2: Hey Jay, this is the kind of interviews I love because Vicky breaks all the molds that you would have about who would be a master negotiator. She knows it all. She teaches this stuff and my God, there was so much value in today's podcast.

Speaker 1: I love that it all comes down to preparation, having the right strategy based on human psychology, which, you know, we love here at the art of charm and of course, understanding that we need creativity to get the result we're looking for. And I absolutely love that her X factor is public speaking. We highly recommend all of our clients hone that skill, because it's not just about talking on it's about entering any room with confidence. And guess what that's exactly what our first bootcamp participants since 2019 experienced just a couple of weeks ago, right? Johnny, absolutely.

Speaker 2: This week, shout out cause the amazing attendees of our first art of charm program that we've run since 2019, it was here in Vegas and it was a blast. I want to point out how our clients, Alex really loved the video word. He's a basketball player. So they watch film all the time. So when he saw himself on video and we posted up where he needed his posture to be fixed and corrected, so he could put off the right energy and not be so intimidating, being such a tall guy, he took to it very

Speaker 1: Easily. Not only did I love Mike's chocolate, which he brought for all of us, but I loved how he was able to finally understand emotional bids and use them in conversation. He's an avid listener of the show. He's heard us talk about emotional bids again and again, but it's one of those nuanced concepts that until you actually put it into practice can be a little tricky to get down. And it was amazing to see all the growth happen over that weekend. I can't wait for our next bootcamp in October, Johnny.

Speaker 2: Absolutely. They are a blast. And if things continue to go where they are will perhaps we're going to see more live art of charm programs in 2020.

Speaker 1: If you want to join us for a live program, head on over to unlock your X-Factor dot com and apply today, we'll have a quick phone call. See if you're a good fit and let you know if you are ready to join us on our next program. Also,

Speaker 2: Could you do us in the entire art of time team, a big favor, could you head on over to iTunes and rate and review this podcast? It would mean the world to us and it helps others find the show and helps us get the great game. Yes,

Speaker 1: That's right. We love our guests. This was another one of those fantastic episodes. The art of charm podcast is produced by Michael Harold and Eric Montgomery until next week. I'm a DJ and I'm Johnny go out there and crush it.

Speaker 4: [inaudible] [inaudible].