Speaker 1: Welcome back to the art of charm podcast, a show designed to help driven entrepreneurs and professionals. Like you create more opportunities, build more trust and close more deals every week we share with you interviews and strategies to help guide you towards your goals, by unlocking your X-Factor and giving you the edge you need in a hyper competitive world. The latest in science psychology and self-development tools will help you reach your full potential, whatever it may be by giving you the edge in any situation. So whether

Speaker 2: It's sales or clients, relationships, or even deepening bonds between friends, we've got what you need. You shouldn't have to settle for anything less than extraordinary. I'm AAJ. And I'm Johnny, ladies and gentlemen, we're running our live in-person boot camps again this year. And they're being held in beautiful Las Vegas. Yes, that's right. And it will be an immersive weekend of drills and exercises to help you master conversation and create more opportunities, build more trust and close more deals.

Speaker 1: We've been running these programs for over a decade. Our bootcamp is packed with the best strategies science, psychology, and entrepreneurship has to offer straight from our show. So if you've learned a lot from this show, just think what a packed weekend full of exercises, drills, and networking can do for you.

Speaker 2: Who's going to be there. Well, I'll tell you entrepreneurs, high-performing professionals, sales specialists, looking to gain an edge on their competition. Much like yourself. Seats are extremely limited and applications closed this week. So head on over to the art of charm.com/bootcamp. And don't just take it from us. I want to give you a testimonial of one of our favorite clients. This comes from our client, Rick, or

Speaker 1: Coming to bootcamp. Rick would describe himself like this. I've always been an extrovert, so I didn't have any trouble talking to people, but I wanted more out of my social and dating life. Any success I had just seemed to come for being in the right place at the right time, I felt like I needed to do so much work, but Rick wasn't willing to settle. So he committed to doing something about it and put in the work. I pushed myself during the week more than I have in the last 10 years, the instruction, the exercises and the support you guys gave was second to none, just wow. Who would have thought working on myself for a weekend could be so exciting, exhausting and unbelievably rewarding. I think the biggest thing for me was the consistent application of the principles that you guys taught us. I could literally feel myself growing more confident with each exercise we did.

Speaker 1: And after each night we went out and investing made all the difference with everything I gained from the bootcamp. Now those opportunities come to me. I effortlessly used the conversational tools to show my worth, build trust, and drive interest in me. Now I'm the guy who makes other people feel like they were in the right place at the right time to meet me. It's funny when I think back now and realize how many chances I missed out on, because I just didn't see them at the time. I should have taken bootcamp sooner, but better, late than never. Right? If you want results like this in your life, if you want to see an amazing transformation in your social skills, confidence and ability to connect, then head on over to the art of charm.com/bootcamp. Pause this podcast right now and apply today as applications close at the end of this week, are you ready to crush it in business loving life, then press pause on this podcast right now and head to the art of charm.com/bootcamp to apply today.

Speaker 1: Now, thank you everyone for tuning in let's kick off today's show, and it is all about how to win today. We have Tim Grover with us. Tim has been the trainer for some of the most elite and iconic athletes in the world, including the late Kobe Bryant, Dwayne Wade and Michael Jordan Kobe called them the master of mental toughness. Tim is also the author of the book, relentless from good to great to unstoppable and his new book winning the unforgiving race to greatness just came out and we can't wait to unpack what it takes to win over and over again with you, our audience, welcome to the show. Tim many in our audience are just getting started in their career and wanting to make an impact, wanting to gain respect. And you started your career training with one of the greatest athletes of all time. How did that come to be? And how did you build trust at such an early stage in your career with someone that we all recognize know and love? Michael Jordan

Speaker 3: Was my first professional client, but the road and the chase and the race to get to him, that was what people don't want to don't want to talk about. And so what happened was I graduated with a master's degree in exercise science. You go out, not that many jobs available in the fitness industry back in the early eighties, other than a health club. So I take a job at a local health club back then the minimum wage was $3 and 35 cents. That's a minimum wage. So here I am. I'm like, do I take this job with a master's degree? Or do I go lie down on my parents' couch? Well, we already knew what my parents were going to say. That was not going to happen. So I took this job. I took this job because what I, what I did was I had the, all the education, but I didn't have that actual practical experience.

Speaker 3: And the part of the training that I needed, the interaction with individuals. So I took a job at a local health club, got to meet some people, see things I was going on eventually got elevated to a, to a personal trainer. And I started to train individuals. And I was like, all right, remember, this is before social media. There's no emails. There's very few cell phones. And I'm like, all right, how can I distinguish myself from everybody else? Well, it's really not about me. It's about the results. I can get my clients because they're going to be my walking. Yeah. They are my Facebook. They are my Instagram. They are my, uh, but instead of showing it on a phone, people actually see those individuals. So I was like, all right, I have to pay attention to every little detail. Really let these individuals know that if you want to work out with me, these are the things that are going to happen.

Speaker 3: This isn't about just coming to see me three hours, three hours a week. There's a lot of stuff that else goes in there. So I started to hold people really accountable. And when through that accountability, I started to get great results with these individuals really, really good at this office. And that got to slowly start to spread in the di in the health club industry. And then I started to work with women. I started to work with children. I started to work with recreational athletes and starting to get all this thing gone. So that time between getting my first professional client, and it was three years before I got that first professional, our first professional client really allowed me to understand my craft, even better, figure out things that I didn't know. Then I saw a article in our local newspaper saying how the Michael Jordan was tired of taking the physical abuse from the Detroit pistons.

Speaker 3: And I was like, okay. I was like, you know what? If I write letters to all the other players and Michael sees the work I did with those guys, maybe he would be interested in me. So this was before the email process. So I literally wrote 14 separate letters to every player on the Chicago bulls organization except Michael Jordan. So I was like, oh, he's already so talented. He's not going to want it. He's not going to want to work with me. And especially since I never had a professional athlete. So somehow those letters made it to some of the players, few of the players, I don't know. And Michael reached into somebody else's locker and pulled out the open letter and looked at it and gave it to the athletic trainer and the team physician at that time and said, Hey, find out what this guy is about.

Speaker 3: And lowly through a three month process later, I went through it. I finally got a chance to meet. Michael had the opportunity to sit down with him, explain my philosophies. The first thing I told him, I said, listen, if you're looking for an individual that has played basketball at a professional level, I'm not that person. I said, I played in college, but I said, cause you know, a lot of people like in all, well, if you haven't played at that level, you really don't know what you're, what you're talking about. I'm just like, if, if we have an issue with that, this conversation doesn't need to go. And he finally, he goes, I don't need you to help me put the ball in the hoop. I can do that on my own said, all right, got it. So then I kind of explained my philosophy to him and the way things were going and he goes, this doesn't sound right, because nobody had told him what I wanted to do. Everybody wind up, bulk them up and make them stronger. And I was like, no, that's not the first thing we need to do. We need to address some other issues that are going on with your body. And he goes, this doesn't sound right. I said, well, it doesn't get any writer. I said, give me 30 days, 30 days turned into 15 years.

Speaker 1: And over those 30 days, obviously you were challenging him. And again, at that point in your not having worked with many professional athletes and certainly no one of his caliber, how did he react to that? And how did that trust get built? And that relationship cement itself, he

Speaker 3: Knew I was just as competitive as he was. That was very important. I paid attention to the details. And the one thing I always told him, I said, after each workout, after each training session, after each recovery session, I would always tell him how he's going to feel within the next 12 hours with the next 24 hours with the next 48 hours, whatever score. I said, Hey, these are the things you should feel in the body. This is where you'll feel a little stiffness. This is the way you'll feel a little tightness. This is where you feel more flexible. These are all things that could happen. So I was going to, I was telling him what his body's going to feel before it actually happened. And then by him seeing that, but like, yeah, you know what the, yeah, I do feel a little tight here.

Speaker 3: I do a feel looser. I am moving a little better here. Yeah. I had a little more soreness going to the right, going to LA. He was like, man, maybe this kid actually knows what he's talking, what he's talking about. So that actually built the trust more and more. And the other part that was extremely important was when you deal with high level athletes or even in business, they have a lot of, yes, people around them that all they agree to everything they say. And I was the complete opposite I would, when he would say something, I was like, no, Michael, now we're not going to do it this way. We're going to do it this way. And he wasn't really accustomed people say taking control of a situation because he was like, Hey, I'm the, I'm the alpha I'm used to telling people what to do. I'm used to dictating things and I was like a hundred percent true. You are. But when it comes to this, you hired me to do a job. You have to let me do my job.

Speaker 1: Obviously this book winning is not about exercise science or kinesiology, not at all. It's about the space between our ears and how we work our minds and get us to a place to win and win repeatedly. Right? It's not just once Michael, wasn't happy. It's settling with one championship Kobe, the same Dwayne, everyone you've worked with. How did you make that transition into? Wow. The mindset is such a big part of what I'm going to be doing with these athletes to push them, to build their grit and resilience.

Speaker 3: Well, you know, if you look at all the videos of all these individuals, everything that's available on Google or YouTube, all these different things, they always say, what does it start with? It starts, like you said, in between the years, it starts with a mindset NBA players. Aren't going to play basketball like these individuals, but being able to compete, being able to win, being able to understand what it takes to become better. It's an, all of us, we all have the ability to compete. So being able to sit down and watch these individuals, how they handled, wins, how they handle losses, how they handle times when they won with their teammates, how they handle times when they lost with their teammates, with their families, with their friends, how they prepared, all that stuff. I really paid attention to all those nuances and for myself in order to play at the level that I played at, which was at a small D one school, I was not physically gifted as a lot of the athletes that I had to play again.

Speaker 3: So I had to out-think them. I had to know, I had to know how to be more mentally prepared, how to be stronger than them when they were quitting, how to see things that they didn't see. So it was something that was part of me for a long time. And then working with these elite athletes and understanding their mindset, it just took it to it. It just took it to a different level because we have this space in between our ears. And it's funny, it's supposed to be our space, but so many times we let somebody else set shopping and we let somebody else control what's going on in there. And they're not even paying rent in that space. You know, you have the money, it's the most valuable space that you have and you not even controlling, it's somebody else's. So the one thing I always tell the individuals is I need you to be exactly who you are, because that's the most important thing once you know exactly who you are that I know the individual I'm dealing with. I know the physical capabilities, I know the limitations. I know the mental toughness of an individual because I'm getting that real person, not the fake individual. And once you see that person, the mindset kind of takes form on its own.

Speaker 1: I think many of us can't relate to the talent level of the athletes that you've worked with, but we can all relate to the challenges that come along with winning. When you look at Michael Jordan's winning percentage in his career, Kobe's the number of shots they missed outweighs the number of shots they made even game winners versus misses. Failure is such a big part of the journey to winning. And they're able to use that failure in a way that I think many of us aren't many of us quit before we get to the place of winning. We create self doubt and our insecurities overwhelm us. What did you learn about how they manage that self doubt and insecurity and failure to get to a level to not only win, but when repeatedly

Speaker 3: I break individuals down into three different, three different categories, we have the people that compete and there's individuals that compete. We all know how to compete. We compete every single day at something, all right? And a lot of people that compete at things, their win is to finish. They just want to finish whatever the, whatever they're doing to me. If you're going to compete at something and you're going to finish it, make sure it leads to a win. It might not be a winner in that particular area. It could be a win in something else. You know, people always love to run marathons. And unless you're the elite elite marathon, the chances of you, no matter how much training you have to go into any marathon and win the marathon is not going to happen. It's just, it's just not, but your mindset is to finish.

Speaker 3: So when you finish, what does that finish? Lead to a win in something else. Then you have the other individuals that win once. And we all know those individual. We all know those individuals. They tell you about that one when that happened 20 years ago. And they tell it to you over and over again. And we're so polite that we don't want to tell them. Yeah, we, you just told us that story last year, the year before and the year before that. And, and those people are just satisfied with one, that one, that one glorious with, then you have people that win at winning. Those are the people that know that every time they win at something, there's another start line there. And how do you get to that place? It's actually done through failure and losing. Cause like you said, you're going to miss more shots.

Speaker 3: You're going to lose more than you're going to win. You're going to fail more than you're going to win. But the one thing I learned and I teach these individuals, yes. You know, when people say, when you fail and you lose, you need to say stand right back up. Because if you stay down, it's a sign of weakness. I totally disagree with that. If you get knocked out and you fail, stay down there for a second, we stay down there for a minute, stay down there for a day. Understand, hi, you got knocked down. Why you failed? Because when you stand back up, if you jump right back up, you're going to get knocked down again. Cause you're standing up the same person. So once you fail, you stand up, understand why you got knocked down. Because when you stand up, you have to be different.

Speaker 3: So you know, you get, you fail and you fall, you stand up, you have to be smarter, you fail and you fall. You have to stand up. You have to be stronger. You fail and you fall, you stand right. You have to be more resilient. So with each failure, if you stand up differently and not the same, it brings you closer to that. When a set of farther away from it, can't stand up the same individual. And I've always noticed through all my, all my career with my athletes, with the business, people I work with is every failure, every loss it's brought them closer to that. Ultimate win for whatever they're looking for. And for like you said, most people, it creates that it creates self doubt. It says, oh, I didn't do this. Right. I don't want to go through this again. Winning. It's not about the glamour. It's about the challenges. It's about the obstacle. It's about the pain you go through to have that win briefly. I mean, look at, I'm pretty sure you guys are this isn't your first podcast.

Speaker 3: Yeah. You're very well known in this industry. You guys are very successful, but after every point odd cast that you guys do, that's your win. But then the net, it starts all over with the next one. It starts all over with the next one. It starts all over with it all over with the next one. And with each one, everybody will look at it and say, oh man, that podcast was absolutely perfect. There was, you know, the lighting was great. The sound was good. Your guests was unbelievable. And then YouTube will review it and be like, nah, this wasn't right. This was a right. This was a right. That, yeah. And those are your failures, even though everybody else sees this as a success, because the next time it has to continue to improve, it has to continue to improve.

Speaker 2: Tim. I want to make a comment about that mark. Right there. It is so true for AIG and I to the detriment of our own promotion. And let me give you an example in this world, with all the social media that's going on, it is incredibly difficult to feed these algorithms with fresh content every day and make it miraculous and make it special. And so the idea is the repurpose old content. And if we are people who are trying to get better on a daily basis, do you think that I want to be promoting content from a year ago? Yeah. And I can tell you, and then we have this problem where on one level we know that we hit the points and it was good and it's all there, but on a logical right now level, it's like, I'd rather just do it all over again because there's going to be more excitement. Or we, we know this, even this concept even better now or because of the way I'm viewing it. I know I could just get it across in a much better than where I was a year ago. There's you know, you

Speaker 3: Guys are asked a question, you think you've nailed all the questions and then you'll be like, shoot. That's I forgot to ask that one question. I should have asked them that I should have asked that one question or just something wasn't right. That's what winners do. They're constantly looking to get better because if you don't, if you remain the same, that'll be your only winning everybody. That's one, that's something repeatedly. They've never come back the same. They've come back better. They've come back different with each. If you come back exactly the same, you're not going to win again. You have to constantly be evolving. You have to be your biggest critic. You have to understand, you have to give yourself feedback and criticism and know it's genuine. And too many times we look for feedback and criticism from everybody else where the most important person that should be giving us that information is ourselves.

Speaker 3: Those are our wins. You hold yourself to a higher standard than every body else will. I love how people come up. And this, I know this happens to you guys all the time. People are, you know, when something doesn't go, right. They'll be like, oh, you know, don't worry about it. It'll be okay. Are you guys settling for okay. Winners settle for, okay. And it's usually when somebody tells you it's going to be okay, that's the answer. That's all you got for me. It's going to be okay. That's how is that going to solve the problem? We don't settle for it. Okay. We don't settle for fine. We don't do that. Winners don't do that. They speak a completely different language. Was

Speaker 2: It in your drive that allowed you to continuously be a few steps ahead of these relentless people in order to continue to help them change? And I'm sure on all that time and the goals that were set out and the level of competition that everyone was in, there's got a, the highs and lows and the, the relationship there had to have been built to such a degree to withstand a lot of those challenges.

Speaker 3: Yes. So the way I stayed ahead of everybody. So when you guys first started this podcast, all right, I'm sure you studied a lot of individuals. You read books, you did your research, you did all the things that you were supposed to do. And that's the ability of what to think. You sit down, you, you look at something, you read an article, you read a piece of paper, you read something on your phone, you do the research that tells you, these are, this is how you do. This is how you do things. I have the ability, not only to do what to think, but how to think. All right. And how to think is instinctive between each individual. So while everybody was saying, this is the manual to train a athlete. And I looked at it, I was like, I agree with some of this stuff, but I know there's a better way.

Speaker 3: There's a better way to do these things. So I incorporated a lot of my knowledge and the stuff that I had no bases on. There was no research, no thing that said, Hey, this is the way to do it, but I just knew it was right. It just made sense to me. It just made sense. So having the ability of how to think along with what to think really, really made a difference in how I was able to keep up with these athletes. How was I was able to go beyond what they, what they were expecting of me, how I was able to evolve and do stuff that everybody hadn't seen. I mean, we were doing what I used to train these athletes on a regular basis. You know, if you go work out and everybody let's just use a bench press as an example, because everybody knows what a bench press exercises.

Speaker 3: You put the equal weights on both sides of the bar. All right. And I was just like, well, you know what? He's right-hand dominant. This is what he has a tendency to do. This is what goes on the left-hand. I need to strengthen one side more than the other. And I need to be able to create this of this balance. And so I would load more weight on one side and less on the other. And I would explain to him, I said, Hey, listen, you got to trust me on this guy. You gotta try, you gotta trust me on this. And I would explain to them, you know what? My reasoning was behind this. And he hired me to do a job. He trusted me. He saw the results and then Lilly, 10 years later, other people were incorporating that kind of training method into these individuals.

Speaker 3: So what makes you so unique? And so successful is yet, you know what? The foundation, the fundamental principles are to have a good podcast, but in order for it to be a successful, extraordinary podcast, you got to put your own little recipe onto it. You gotta put your own little things into the soup. You gotta just know, Hey, this is what works for us. It may not. I don't care if it doesn't work for anybody else, this is what works for us. And having that ability to know, you know, not only what to think, but how to think is a huge advantage to individuals who want to stay ahead of everybody else.

Speaker 1: And you hit the nail on the head. I mean, when you look at winning one championship that off season, every team is studying tape and breaking down what you did to get there. They are learning all of your weaknesses and everything. That was a strength. We've seen the MBA evolve. Now it's a three point league. And if you just stay the same as you were the last year, you won the championship, you might be lucky to make the playoffs. It is so highly competitive. Now, obviously one athlete of Michael Jordan stature would be enough to end the career, lace it up. I did it. We won the championships. Let me go on vacation. But you've taken now multiple athletes, that level, and now executives, and as coaches ourselves, we realize a lot of this goes into reading that person and their personality and figuring out what they need at that moment to succeed. Michael, although many love to compare Michael to Kobe, they had different personalities. It sounded like Michael was more trusting of you. Kobe was, I want to know why I needed to push back and figure out what's going on here. And then you have Dwayne, who's just a lot more laid back and fun, totally different personality. And you were able to get all three to that level repeatedly. What is it in you that has allowed you to learn, to read people and find out how to get to what ticks and helps motivate them so effectively?

Speaker 3: Hey Jay, I'm glad you asked that question because no one's ever asked me that question before. So one of my biggest flaws that everybody says is a flaw of mine is I stare like, I'm like Lilly. I have this habit of just staring, but that's the way I learn. That's the way I learn. Like, if I'm focused in, on that person or that activity or whatever's going on, I have no idea what's going on around me. Not a clue. So what I was, I watched these individuals. I was like, so laser focused to watch their personalities, watch their movement patterns, watch how they handle stuff with their family. What kind of, you know, when their kids would come around, what kind of expression they would have if a teammate missed a shot or they, everybody knew how Michael would handle a teammate making a mistake, but you know that wasn't going to be how everybody else did.

Speaker 3: So it's just like being able to study human behavior and see it repeatedly over and over and over again. And I would always get this comment from these individuals. I said, man, what the hell are you looking at? I was like, just go do what you gotta do. Just leave me alone. Let me, let me focus. It, let me focus in on what I'm doing. And it makes a lot of people nervous. So what I like to say is everybody who's done something extraordinary. We all try to hide our flaws, our differences and all that other stuff. But that's what allows you to win when other people can't. So the things that you, your flaws, where everybody thinks it's an imperfection is actually one of your greatest gifts and allows you to Excel in areas that other individuals just can't. And I still have that habit of staring.

Speaker 3: I do it at a restaurant when I'll see somebody, there'll be like, Hey, you stand, but I see something happening in that, at that table. Or I see, I just, I'm trying, I'm trying to process what's going on with that person. No disrespect to them, but that's just, I can't change. I can't, I cannot change. I, and I don't, I don't want to change because my flaw has gotten me this far. It's gotten me this far and it's going to continue to get me where I want to go with same thing with the CEOs. When I get in there, I watched their mannerism. I watch how they work. I watch how they handle staff. I watch what they eat for lunch. I see if they drink during the middle of season, do they go, Tate? Do they go play golf? Uh, what is their relaxation activity? When they greet somebody? What's their mannerisms of, you know, when they shake an individual's hand, is there a hand over the top? Is that the, is it underneath? Is that a consistent basis where their eyes are all the different things and you have to see if they do those consistently over and over and over again. If you do that, you get to really learn the mental makeup of an individual.

Speaker 1: And it's that observation that allows you to see when things are right and when they're not right, and it's going to be small details that can take them off their game and you need to be perceptive to pick up on that.

Speaker 3: Exactly. So, you know, I, I watch a person Ron, or I've watched a person move and I'd be like, okay, this needs to be adjusted. This needs to go here. I used to have this thing where, you know, athletes sprain their ankles quite often when they, when they play, when they play sports. So with my athletic background, we have different types of, uh, taping that we do for the ankle, depending on where the sprain is. Well, almost like, well, let's take this a step further. So if you can support it with tape, how about if we figure out different ways to lace a gym shoe that enhances that even more. So we used to literally have eight different ways to lace a gym shoe, depending on what injury that individual had. So you, you know, everybody's stat is one way, but paying attention to those little details and be like, okay, Hey listen.

Speaker 3: And many times we would lace one shoe differently than the other, because we had to have one joint was more stiff. And the other one was a little bit, the other one had a little bit, had to be a little bit more lax because of an entry. So we were like, okay, we can't create the same stability in both shoes. We need to create one side that has to have more stability. And we need to create the other side to balance things out. So have to have a little bit of instability. So paying attention to those details came through, watching through observing things that other people just didn't think were important. People always say, you know, don't sweat the small stuff. When you're winning, you got to sweat everything. You got to pay attention to every little thing. The one thing that you miss out on to be the most important detail in that particular moment.

Speaker 1: And I think that's why winning is so fleeting for so many, because we are okay with the ordinary. We are okay with get back up, dust yourself off. It's going to be okay. Mindset. Yeah. You had an anecdote on another show around self doubt and how these athletes themselves had self doubt. And I know we've heard the Mamba mentality we see in the Jordan documentary. And we think of these athletes as superhuman and not having insecurities, not having self doubt, but they do. How did you coach them through those moments to get out the other side? When many of us quit?

Speaker 3: Well, you know what we all have. And I talk about this in the book, winning about winning wages of war, the battlefield of your mind. We all have our doubts that are going in our minds. We all have the stuff that can explode at any single time. You know, we all have to deal with anger. We all have to deal with fear. We all have to deal with anxiety. And those are bombs that bust all the time. So you have to know how to diffuse those things. You have to know what the triggers are, the set, those set, those things off. And we all, haven't. Now a lot of times, those things are placed into our heads, by somebody else that we allow to get into that space and they get to control the buttons. You know, I love how people always say, you know, you have to learn to push.

Speaker 3: You know, I want to learn how to push their buttons. You don't want anybody to ever push your bunch. If you allow that fat means they have total control over you. Now, you know, if they want to say, oh, I want this person to be angry. I'm going to push that button. I want them to be happy. I'm gonna push it. I want them to be frustrated. No, you pull your own buttons and you decide which ones you want to press at that particular time. So you understand how to diffuse whatever that battlefield is going on in your mind. And it's not always the negative things. All right. I know you guys hear this all the time. Oh, you work too hard. You work too much. All right, you guys should take a day off or you need to unwind. I'm so uncomfortable when I'm unwell, I'm actually more comfortable when I'm wild up.

Speaker 3: That's actually more comfortable to me. There are ways that I like to unwind, but that's how I like to do it. Not what somebody else wants me to do. People that win over and over again, people that have that mindset. And again, this isn't just about success and money. This is whatever you want to do in life. It's raising your kids. It's a terrible, terrible organizations. You're walking, it's education, whatever it may be. Those individuals, they enjoy being what they enjoy being wild up that feeling. It's good for them. It it's like it's something that's necessary when they're online. They're like, all right, how long has it been? I I've been sitting here for 30 minutes and you look at your watch men. It's been three minutes. I need some, I need something to do. I need something to do.

Speaker 2: Few years ago, we had the opportunity, the pleasure and honored to interview Kobe. He's been on this show. And one of the things that had come out was that he had put together the idea of the Mamba mentality, the black mama, as a way to handle everything that was going on in his life. And I'm going to expect you late from this conversation, perhaps there was too many people who had control over his buttons at that time. And he created this alter ego to take that control back. Where are you around for this inception? Was this part of your idea, or can you speak to that identity shift and what the black Bama was able to accomplish?

Speaker 3: Yeah. So the one thing I want to say, everybody thinks of the black Mamba as a mentality. And I was telling of it. It's not a mentality, it's a lifestyle, it's a lifestyle. And I've seen more individuals who have tried to adopt this mama mentality lifestyle. And it's actually been more of a hindrance in their careers than it has been a success. Yeah. But yeah, but what he needed to do was this was a time in his life that he was going through some, some personal stuff off the basketball court. And he came up with this idea through watching one of the kill bill movies. And I talk about this in the book, how this all thing came off because it, one of the kill bill movies, one of the, one of the characters is the black is the black mama. You know, if Colby is going to name himself, he's not going to name himself after a guard snake, he's going to name herself.

Speaker 3: And after like the most venomous snake out there, it became his alter ego where it was just like here, when I stepped between these whatever's going on outside, it doesn't matter. It's still gonna be here because I still have an obligation to perform at the highest level. Not only to myself, but to my teammates, to the organization, the people that are sitting, watching TV, the people that paid lots of money to watch the game. So he was like, I have an obligation to perform at the highest level. And what was so significant about this is during those times, he actually played some of his best basketball because it allowed him to focus even more on his craft. He had to, he was able to block everything else out and say, this is the thing that matters the most. And I'm going to do this at the highest level possible.

Speaker 3: We all have distractions in our life. I have this thing. Everybody is going through something that no one knows nothing about. I don't care who you are, how successful you are, what individual you are, how much money you have, everybody's going through something just because you're a great athlete or you're a highly successful business person. It doesn't mean you don't have relationship problems. It doesn't mean you don't have personal issues. It doesn't mean that your, uh, your children are going to be perfect. But Instagram, we love to, everybody likes to portray the perfection that's that's out there. And I always tell individuals that you have to be real with yourself. And one of the tests that I do with individuals and I came up with a, you know, well, Colby came up with a mob mentality idea. We kind of harnessed it to what it, what it was, what it became was I do this test now where I do a lot of my speaking.

Speaker 3: I always say, everyone pull out your cell phone and everyone, yeah, pause out their cell phone. I said, look at your profile picture on one of your social media pages, whether it be Instagram, Snapchat, Twitter, Tik, TOK, whatever, whatever it may be. And everybody pulls out the picture. And I said, none of you looked that good. None of you look that good. Not a single person in this room looks that good. Right. But then I just, and everybody laughed. And I said, the reason I'm making this point is if you're constantly living your life through failure on this little phone platform, be careful, it doesn't transfer into your real life. Be very busy, very careful. Cause cause you start to believe that you start to believe that image. You start to believe that idea of perfection. You start to believe that fake individual that that's in here and the mama mentality became who Colby really, really was.

Speaker 3: He was, you know, he was that same way when he played back, when he played basketball, when he had business meetings, when he practiced with no matter what he did later on in his career, he, you know, obviously opened up a little bit more. You got, you got to see the, uh, you got to see the softer individual inside of him, but he was still an extremely competitive person. The mama mentality didn't stop on the basketball court. Even when he retired, won an Oscar wrote, you know, award-winning children's books was, you know, who knows what was next? Lily had his daughter practicing for three hours a day on defense, not on offense, on defense,

Speaker 2: Everything that you just said there about Coby. And especially, maybe softening up a bit as he got older, but that competitiveness was still there. And I thought it was, it came right through when we met him. I mean, he was serious as a heart attack. Yes. Incredibly focused, gracious to come on the show and talk with us. But there was something going on there that you could see it and you could feel

Speaker 3: It. Yeah. That's a key point that you just said, Johnny, not only can you see it, you can feel it. Individuals like Colby had the ability title. He could literally look at you and you could feel something that was like, he could like, he could touch you with you with his eyes. You're like, all right, there's, there's something go there's, he's trying to Pierce right through me. He's just like, you know, they used to call you, they used to call it that, you know, that that glare that he used to, they used to give you that death stare when he would just kind of Pierce. And I, I believe me, I was, I was on the receiving end of that death stare quite often.

Speaker 1: Now you, you bring up a good point around focus and it's, it's brought up in the book a lot around in order to get to a level of winning. You have to maintain incredible laser-like focus. Yes. We live in a time of distraction and everyone talks about time management, unwind balance. None of these athletes that you

Speaker 2: Work with are dogging about any of those things. So how do we

Speaker 1: Get to that laser, like level of focus with all of these distractions and what is your perspective on time management? Cause I've heard it and I want our audience to hear it because I really agree with it

Speaker 3: Wholeheartedly. We have all these cliches out here that everybody uses as motivation. All right. And I actually think instead of them motivating individuals, it actually takes them a step back because it kind of makes you more comfortable. And at some point you got to get beyond motivation. To me, motivation is entry-level. It really, really is. All right, you got to learn to elevate yourself. You've got to elevate your craft. And that comes from knowing stuff that's inside of you. And one of the things I've worked with, all my athletes, all my business, clients, everything, I was like, listen, I don't want you to manage time because everybody tells you to manage time, manage time, manage time. I said, I want you to manage focus. There's a huge difference between the two, because when you're managing time, you never have have enough time. But when you manage focus, you always have enough time to get what you're supposed to do.

Speaker 3: And what's the first thing you have to do. And when you have to start managing focus versus managing time, you got to eliminate the honor centrals. Now I'm not saying you have to be laser focused all the time was even a laser needs to be turned off. Otherwise it's going to open preheat. All right. Yes. Yeah. So, but the ability to go from being focused on focus and being focused again, it's, to me, it's actually something you can work on. It's something that you can, you can adjust in your craft. So I tell these individually let's work on managing focus. Let's not worry about managing time because when you met manage time, you're never going to do the things at its ultimate level. Think about an individual. Like that's constantly look where they have a bunch of stuff to do. And they're constantly looking at their watches or the times or wherever.

Speaker 3: They're constantly looking at their fault. They'll get all the things done or majority of the things done, but there'll be all done to add. Now, when you manage that focus, a set of that time, you get everything you need to get done. It's done to its highest ability and it's done so so well because you had the ability to block out the distractions. Listen, I take a break from time to time. I get into this zone. I get into this fo this focus thing. I enjoy a good puppy rescue video and a cat video. Just like anybody else does. All right. But does that 30 seconds turn into 30 minutes? People always think that what causes complacency. Everybody likes it. Well, just look at yourself. Yeah. Complacency. You literally cause complacency so that you have to have the ability to say, Hey, listen, everybody manage, focus.

Speaker 3: Don't manage time. And then the other thing about ballot, oh man, this one gets me. That's what really, really gets me. All right. There's there's so many books out there and there's so many individual that speak about balance. And it's funny. They'll tell you, you need more balance in their life. And this is after they've occurred, polished, almost everything that they wanted to do. They're extremely successful. They're there they're financially well off the families, everything good, but they don't want to talk about the time, what they had to, how, how their lives unbalanced in order to get to that thing. You do not find balance. That is totally incorrect. You have to create balance. And when you create balance, it's different for every single individual. What happens when you tell a person they need more balance in their life, they start to add more to add everybody, you know you, and now you're trying to balance even more things.

Speaker 3: You're trying to balance this. You're trying to balance this and that. And now you're more out of balanced. Well, how do you get more focused? You eliminate the unessentials. So how do you give come more balanced? You eliminate the unessentials and we all have on essential. The issue is we don't like to delete. We like to add, add, add every phone. Every computer, it has a save button. It has a delete button. All right. We know how to use the save button. Very few people know how to use the use, the delete button. So in order to have more time in order to get closer to balance, it's about the subtraction. It's not about the addition. And the one thing I always tell people is you don't want the scale totally imbalanced, but you have to decide how you're going to weigh this thing. And this thing I talk about also in the book is I ask this question, I'll be like, all right, who wants to zero happiness?

Speaker 3: You know, obviously nobody raises their hand. I said, who was zero success? Nobody raises their hands. You know, I said, who wants a zero life? Nobody raises their hand. I said, who wants zero money? Nobody raises their hand. Well, I said, well, what's the number on a perfectly balanced scale. It's a zero. It's an absolute zero. So if you're trying to balance all those things, you may have all those things, but you're going to have them at the lowest, lowest level. And that's not what life is about. You have to know, listen, this is what's important to me right now. And have that support system that you have next to you, with your family, with your friends, whatever that may be and be like, I respect where this person is right now. I understand. I understand

Speaker 1: That balance is the cherry on top. It's not the pursuit. Yes,

Speaker 3: Yes. And even that cherry on the top, have you ever seen a perfectly balanced round cherry? The stem has always curled one way and thing is so it's, it's never perfect. It's never perfect.

Speaker 2: I don't know where this idea of balance came from. And I will tell you with our clients and our X-Factor program, every time a new guy comes in, the first thing they're talking about is I need to organize my life and get some violence there. And I'm like, and I'm like, well, what does that even mean to you? Right? And, and, and they can't define it because what they define is giving it to them. I usually hear when they define it, happiness or tranquility or serenity, or just easy bag. And it's like, you're not going to have that until you start subtracting the things in your life that are making her life unbalanced. Right.

Speaker 3: And it's funny when you bring up that question to a giant, others say, well, I want more, I want more, I want more of that as always. I want more and more and more. Well, if you want more of something, you got to give away, you got to get rid of some stuff. You got to get rid of your stuff. There's only so much stuff you can put in that room before it starts to overflow. You know, there's almost so much room that you have in a closet, in a closet before your clothes start. That could be on top of each other in order to keep everything neat, to keep everything balanced, to keep everything clear, you got to get rid of some stuff. You gotta get rid of some stuff, but it's so tough. Yeah. But it's so difficult for people to delete. It's. So D listen, we all have, we all have this. Everyone has including myself. We ha have clothes in our closet or shoes or something that we're never gonna wear. Again. We got no chance. They're never coming back. They're never coming back in style. I'm not going to have that same waistline I had when I was 30 years younger, but we keep it because it's got that designer label. And we look at it one day. Now that one day is a know day. It's not happening. Get rid of it. I've been

Speaker 2: Harping on mainstream television, movies and entertainment for quite some time. In fact, I call it junk food media because it's empty calories. It's, it's like a McDonald's cheeseburger. When you're hungry, it'll fill you up. But there's, there's nothing. You're not, there's no ROI to Trish in there. And one of the conversations that I've been seeing with my regular friends, I'll call them normies, who are not in a self-development war or actualization. They're coming to this conclusion that they're watching more things on the internet than they are. They're they're all getting tired of the same old storylines and bad television and whatnot. And I see these questions of, Hey, I've been thinking about getting rid of cable. I've been saying, I'm like, get rid of your television. And I'm seeing more and more people go. And in this way, I had came to that decision. A lot of that, in fact, that same idea of subtraction has even entered into my diet.

Speaker 2: I was like, what is the, what are the necessities? Where do I, what allows me to work and function and be my best sharpest, mentally, physically, emotionally. And let's just, let's just go there and let's just do that. And I will tell you that world and process of subtraction has made things more interesting, more focused, who even when it comes to entertainment, I'm not scrolling through endless crappy movies to see which one will peak my interest today. It's like, no, I'm going to go and put a yoga video on. And I'm going to stretch because I know the ROI from that is going to be way more avid chaises to me than watching a Netflix series or whatever else

Speaker 3: Might be. So, Jay, it's interesting that you say that people always ask me, Hey, did you watch? So-and-so, I'll be like, I have no clue what you're talking about. I may catch a glimpse of it, or I hear a conversation from somebody else. Or, you know, I have people that like, they, they literally, they binge watch years and years of the show, or like, yes. Or it's like every Thursday at seven o'clock, I don't care what else is happening. I have to watch this. So the next day they can talk about it in their chat rooms or whatever it is. I don't even know these people there. Yeah. I just like, what are you doing? I don't know. It's not that important to me. It's not that important to my self growth. It's not that important for me to be able to have the ability to pass my knowledge on to somebody else. Somebody will ask me, Hey, did you watch? So-and-so? I'll be like, no, I did. I I'm sorry. I didn't end a conversation.

Speaker 1: A piece of mainstream advice is to not be selfish and what I yep. From the book. And why did I knew you were going to go there, the role selfishness in winning. And it's something that obviously when you look at all of these people and the sacrifices they make in their lives and the understanding of their values and their own personal goals and the pursuit of them, there's no question. There's selfishness involved. Of course they want to bring everyone else along with them, but they're doing it for them. They're not doing it for someone else.

Speaker 3: Yes. And you know, it's funny, the word selfish literally has self in it itself. When did taking care of yourself, become a bad thing. I've never understood that when, when did that happen? All right. You know, and in order to separate yourself from others, in order to have more power, to have a more freedom, to have new levels of self winning requires that it's funny. So we just put fancy names on the worst selfish. We like to call it like me time, or boys' night out a girl's night out or man-cave, that's all being selfish. So you tell somebody, Hey, listen, from two to three, I meditate. I meditate. And everybody says, oh, that's so good for your health. Everybody needs to do more of that. Everybody needs to spend time by themselves, you know? And then you're like, you tell somebody else, Hey, between two and three, my phone is off.

Speaker 3: Don't talk to me. Don't bother me. I don't want to hear from anybody else. Now, all of a sudden you're selfish. Well, what's the difference? What exactly? One just had a nice word to it. We do so many things for ourselves is working out selfish is eating better. Selfish is resting. Selfish is we do so many things. And, and the more you take care of yourself, the more you'll be able to take care of others. But if you don't carry yourself, you're not going to be able to take care of others. You look at all the most successful people that run businesses and so forth. They take care of themselves. So they have more to give to the others. Now, if you just take care of yourself and you just take, take and take, that's a completely different type of selfish, but the winning kind of selfish is you win at everybody. That's close to you, everybody else you want to win. They win. Also

Speaker 2: Was it, this brings up an interesting point. Then Tim, because with such demanding clients, you certainly had to set up boundaries to take care of yourself, dealing with their relentlessness and their selfish needs to be always better. And to give them as much time as you did, to be able to develop them, how did you set up those boundaries?

Speaker 3: Well, one thing about working with these athletes, you have a schedule, you know what time practices, you know, what time the games are, you know, where they're going to leave. So whatever you want to be selfish is you gotta fit it in between. You got to fit it in between those times and be like, Hey, this time is for me. It's for my time for me to get better. So I can perform better around these individuals. I, I have the ability to give back. And it's funny. A lot of those times my selfishness was just taking a nap because I had to be on call all the time. And it's funny now it's become like everyone talks like sleep deprivation is like this secret formula to success. Like you can't have sleep. You know what your body needs to recover. Your mind needs to you buy needs to recover.

Speaker 3: People always ask me, well, what's the best time to work out. I heard working out early in the morning is the best time to work out. I said, you know what? The best time to work out is when you can work out. That's the best time to work on it because of the advantages of doing something way early in the morning versus doing it in the afternoon are so small that it's not going to make a difference to you. And plus, if you can give more effort in your workout and more focus in the afternoon, you're going to get more results than if you did it in the morning, winning once you to figure out what's your formula, what's the best way to, for you to do it. You, how many people, you know, that hour, you got to get up before the sun and they get up before the sun and they'd done absolutely nothing. And by the time 10 o'clock on a time, 10 o'clock rolls around. They're ready for a nap. If you don't function early in the morning, don't do it. Those people are the ones that we talked about. They are trying to manage time instead of managing focus.

Speaker 1: Well, what jumps out at me is in order to win, you have to understand yourself at a deep level. You have to be honest and reckon with yourself. This book is not seven steps to winning. It's not a four step process or formula that is cookie cutter for everyone. You handled Jordan and Kobe and Dwayne all differently because they understood themselves and their needs. And then you push them beyond to get to that greater level. So many of us are walking around, not even willing to reckon with who we are, understand ourselves, to listen to our own body, to listen to what's going on inside of us. We're looking for the answers outside of us. We're looking for someone else to copy or some of their formula to follow or some shortcut. And the book is not about shortcuts. It's about understanding yourself at a level and getting into the motivation beyond just showing up beyond just doing it again and understanding that in order to really win, there are sacrifices involved. There is no shortcut to be had to winning. No.

Speaker 3: Yeah. When you make sacrifices, you're going to upset people. You really are going to upset people. And the reason, uh, myself and my coauthor Sherry, when we're writing this book, it was funny. Everybody was telling us, you know, the most successful books that are out there are the ones that give you steps that tell you five steps to this 10 steps to that. And I'm like, uh, well, we're not putting steps in this book because to me that those steps are infinite. Those steps are infinite and they're constantly changing. There is no easy steps to success. Those steps are constantly moving. They're constantly changing. Sometimes they disappear right underneath our feet, but we have to know that they are there. We have to trust that there is a next step and you can always climb those steps. Sometimes you got to demand. Sometimes you just got to sit down and take a breath.

Speaker 3: Sometimes you gotta crawl up those steps. You gotta run, you gotta hop, whatever it takes. And it's funny. Once you get to that top step and you look back down and you realize you're still on that first step and you look back up there. So those steps never, never change. Just like I said, you know, for yourself and for, for me was this podcast is over with, you got to those steps and now your next guests or your next podcast, those steps are constantly effort. They constantly keep going and think about all with all the technology that's going on. All the steps that you may miss. This person's microphone is not working. This person's zoom. The internet is bad. All this people don't plan for those steps. Your life is that way. No one planned for the pandemic. That was a step. No one saw coming. All right. That was something that no one saw coming. If

Speaker 1: You, you lived your life based on steps. By the time the book was published, it'd be a new set of steps. Yes, everything is evolving and changing. By the time they hit print, those steps would be irrelevant. So if you're looking to just follow someone else's path, I'm just going to be Michael Jordan. I'm just going to be Coby. Or I'm just going to be this executive. I look up to Elon Musk, whoever it may be. The steps that they took are different than the steps that you have to take. Exactly. Those steps were relevant to them. It's not relevant to you.

Speaker 3: Yes. And winning has no loyalty to any of us. You know, individuals, you can work hard that doesn't guarantee you success. You can be the most qualified for an individual. Doesn't mean you're going to have, you're going to get that job. You can put out the best content. Doesn't mean you're going to be the highest rated podcast. And then you'll listen to the higher rated podcasts. And you're like, really? You're like, okay, you know what? It works for them. So there are, there are no steps. There are no guarantees winning. It doesn't care. It doesn't care. You have to figure it out. And the key word is, you know what, Johnny and what agent, what you both said, it's you it's about understanding yourself. You spend so much time understanding everybody else. You spend so much time understanding a TV series or understanding what's going on or understanding a plot that's happening in there. Well, so what happens is you start to write everybody else's story and you forget that you have the ability to write and change your own story. And that's what winning wants you to do

Speaker 1: Well as a pistons fan, I'm pretty bummed that you taught Jordan, how to guard is I was enjoying the bad boy button pushing days. I, if I say so myself, we love to ask every guest what their X factor is. What is that skill set and mindset combination that makes you unique and successful understanding yourself? What do you think that is for

Speaker 3: You? I have a muscle that I flex quite often that a lot of people don't and it's the ID GAF muscle. Mine is extremely, extremely strong. It is extremely strong. And I've mastered the ability to say no, without an explanation, you say no to something. No is final. If you have to give an explanation to it, that means you have some self-doubt to it. So I've really, really learned to flex that muscle. I've practiced it. I know when to use it, how to use it. And I use a quiet offer, which allows me to have clarity, which I need in my life and my profession in order to pursue the things that are important to me, which indirectly will be important to the people that surround me that helped me get to this place.

Speaker 1: Well thank you for saying yes to getting on this show with us. We really appreciate it. And these great lessons around winning, definitely grab the book, winning the unforgiving race to greatness. Thank you so much, Tim.

Speaker 3: Thank you so much. This was an honor continued success to both of you. Yeah.

Speaker 2: This week, shout out, goes to our Facebook group member, Ryan Hernandez.

Speaker 1: That's right. Ryan struggling with imposter syndrome, joined us on our Facebook live. We go live every Thursday in our Facebook community. So be like Ryan and join us@theartofcharm.com slash challenge and become a valuable member of our community. If you have questions from the show, you want to learn more about me and Johnny. You can find us there each and every Thursday, live answering your questions and sharing tips, strategies to help you breakthrough imposter syndrome, grow your confidence, master conversation, and connect with anybody. Before we go, could you do us and the entire team, a huge favor, pause this podcast and rate our show. You can do it on Spotify or in your apple podcast app. It means the world to us, and it helps us get amazing guests like Tim Grover until next week. I'm a J and I'm Johnny. Get out there and start winning

Speaker 4: [inaudible] [inaudible].

Speaker 1: Welcome back to the art of charm podcast. A show designed to help you win at work love, and life. Now we know you have what it takes to reach your full potential. And that's why every week we share with you interviews and strategies to help you develop the right social skills and mindsets to succeed.

Speaker 2: You shouldn't have to settle for anything less than extraordinary. Over the last 15 years, we have trained thousands of clients to unlock their charisma, supercharge their social skills and build relationships that they deserve. We have worked with CEOs, military, special operators, Olympic athletes, and billionaires to reach their full potential. I'm Johnny.

Speaker 1: And I'm a J and we're so excited to share with you those exact secrets. Thank you everyone for tuning in let's kick off today's show. We have none other than Dr. Carolyn leaf. She is a communication pathologist and cognitive neuroscientist with a master's and PhD in communication pathology, specializing in cognitive and metacognitive neuro-psychology. Since the early 1980s, she's researched the mind brain connection, the nature of mental health and the formation of memory. She was one of the first inner field to study how the brain can change with directed mind input. Our favorite neuro-plasticity Dr. Leaf is also a best-selling author of switch on your brain. Think, learn, succeed, think, and eat yourself smart and many more. And today we're talking about her latest book, cleaning up your mental mess. Welcome to the show Dr. Leaf.

Speaker 2: Thank you. It's great to be with you both. So I'm excited to talk to you about something that seems like our favorite subject, neuroplasticity,

Speaker 1: That and mental mess, for sure. Yeah. So let's kick things off. I'd love our audience to hear what you define as mental mess. I think we all kind of have an idea, but what are your thoughts on what mental mess is?

Speaker 2: It's basically not having a managed mind. So it all comes down to the fact that if you're human, you wake up in the morning, you go to bed at night and in that space of being awake, you experiencing life and life is so challenging that we are experimenting and it's so easy to make a mess. And it's so human, but you've got to clean that up. We can't live with it, laugh between our teeth every day, we clean our houses and be clean up after eating. We need a teen on mental mess up, and this just not enough attention paid to mind, lots of attention paid to getting our body rights and exercising. And that's so important. I teach in there too, but if your mind's not in it, you can lose up to 80% of the benefit of that good nutrition and food. Anyway. So essentially think of your mental mess is a very human activity. You're human, you're alive, you're a mess, but you don't have to stay that way and you can actually manage it. And that's kind of where the concept comes from.

Speaker 1: Well, what I really enjoy about your podcast is how you share your own stories of mental mess. And Johnny and I laugh as podcasters and, and coaches. We always get asked, well, you guys must be so charming. You don't have any issues. So you have your own dealings with mental.

Speaker 2: Oh, of course. I love that you don't have any issues. I wish there was one human on this planet. You actually didn't have any issues. And then you would all be in, would actually be dead. Obviously I do. And that's where I started off as a clinician, nearly 38 years ago. So that's the amount of years I've been in the field for nearly 40 years and done lots of clinical research and actually did some of the first neuroplasticity research back in the late eighties when they didn't think that the brain could actually change. And I, my professors challenged me and I said, Hey, your mind can change. So therefore your brain can change. So therefore we should be able to manage this process. And they, she told me that that's a ridiculous question. And I've actually did a Ted talk on this, on the ridiculous question of neuroplasticity and that stage, it was not accepted that the brain could change.

Speaker 2: So from that time I moved fast forward. All these years, clinical practice research, et cetera, I applied it into very soon saw that this is not just something for therapy, for extreme cases of extreme trauma, extreme traumatic brain injuries or Alzheimer's or learning disabilities or dementia autism. It's not just for that, but this is basic life skill. Your mind is always with you. You know, you wake up with your mind, you go to sleep with your mind, you eat with your mind, we're using our mind now, you know, your mind's always active. So if you don't understand what it is, how are you going to manage it? So from the, I realized that this is a life, you know, from the ed, my research we've moved into very much, how can we apply this on a day-to-day basis as well as therapeutically? And how can we manage our things like our traumas?

Speaker 2: And because everyone's got to almost to a certain extent, yes. Short on a continuum, some more than others. So obviously along the way, myself and my family of four children, we married for 34 years. We've been our lab, rats, you know, myself and my family have been laboratory. And honestly, this is like, I am amazed still, but there's a huge difference now is I recognize it quickly and I know how to manage it and I can get through it quickly. So I'll make it work for me. I'm not frightened of the mess. I know how to recognize it and know what to do about it. And that is transformational in giving you that kind of mental space where you feel like you can cope with life. So from the big stuff to the tumors and the toxic habits would show up as patterns in our life, to the little things like, how do you manage the moment by moment, little things like the Instagram imposter syndrome reaction and the people-pleasing and the ruminating, and the little arguments that pop up and the horrible text or email that throws you. And you've got to go in a business meeting and all that stuff, the day-to-day stuff to the big stuff. So that's why I developed that whole concept of the neuro cycle into a day to day, as well as trauma advocation.

Speaker 3: You certainly take on a lot of damage trauma and loss throughout the years, and everyone has aspirations or at least somewhere inside of capabilities and things that they like to achieve in life. But without cleaning up the mental mess, they're not going to find the capacity to be able to, to handle what it's going to take to reach those goals. And I think somewhere in early Dole life, people started to look at the mass. They don't know how to deal with it, and they give up on those aspirations. What do you say to those people who are, are trying to grapple with the idea of coming to terms with this mess and actually wanting to do something about it?

Speaker 2: It starts with the recognition that we do have agency. We do have the ability to control, and that has been really stamped out over the last 40 years. And I've been fortunate to speak from this from seeing this change over the last 40 years. And I say fortunate, because I've watched the change as a practitioner, as well as just generally functioning in this world, et cetera. So what I've seen is over the last 40 years, we've seen a move to medicalizing mystery audio. I'm holding a, brain's not real, it's in a skull, but we, as neuroscience has developed and that's been my field, but mine's also been mind brain research. So we've become so caught up in the brain that everything's been about the brain. And I don't know if you've noticed the language, but as a clinician and as a scientist, I've noticed and I've seen, and it's evident in the research become neuro reductionistic.

Speaker 2: We've become so focused on the brain. And everything's about the brain that if you have any kind of anything, it's your brain, your brain made you do it. And that's the mind and the brain, the two words, mind and brain have also been infused interchangeably, but they're totally different. Mind is not brain and mind actually drives brain and mind drives the neuroplasticity of the brain. So the brain has the ability to change. Obviously neuro-plasticity plasticity is the ability of the brain to change, but the brain can change itself. And that's the misnomer. We've had this whole thing that it's brain, brain brain, and, and did, you can literally medicalize misery, but that's not the case. The brain, if you date, the brain does nothing. So the difference between you and a dead brain, you know, is your liveliness and your life is your mind and your mind is always with you.

Speaker 2: So what I would say to those people, when I do say to those people, because that's quite an excellent question, but it's, it's something that people do think about how, you know, that things are so much Reid, you even begin. Why should I even start? How do I is the message that this is in your brain, that you have a brain disease is hope plus it's not hopeful. And that hopelessness that's being taken away from people has actually been shown scientifically to reduce lifespan. It's that can I do? There's no hope. And they just kind of live with the label and live into it because whatever you decide with your mind is going to be the case. That's what you'll follow. That's the direction you drive the neuroplasticity of your brain, the changes in your brain. So there's a population study that was done. And I put this in the book as well.

Speaker 2: There two, 1996, and 2014, they notice that very scary trend. And that trend was there for decades. Long. People have been living longer, but suddenly this trend reversed. And they say that if you track back, the reason why people are dying eight to 25 years younger from preventable lifestyle diseases. So here we are living fast forward, 40 years later in this advanced technological medical age, neuroscientific age, and people are dying younger. So we need advice in one direction. We've gone completely backwards in the other direction. And the age bracket most affects it is the 25 to 65 year old, which are people in the prime of the career, just getting going. And, you know, families, period, kids are losing parents and the workforce is losing great workers. And we take that back to mind, Mike management. So we've given a hopeless message. That's what's come from there, checking it back to mind management.

Speaker 2: So for 40 years, summary, we have focused on brain we've ignored. Mind. Brain is 1%. If your mind is about 99% of who we are, if you ignore the 99%, you ignore the humanity, you ignore the context, the story, the narrative, the causes, people are in life, experiencing life. And when you anxious and depressed and frustrated that sort of brain disease, that is a normal human response to adverse circumstances. And yes, it can get extreme. I mean, if you have a continuum can get very extreme because if you have in a war torn country or multiple traumatic abuse or sexual abuse repeatedly willing and like severe, but whatever, whatever it is, they're more extreme. The more your mind is going to receive that process, that all that into the brain and your brain, both thoughts into trees.

Speaker 1: Yeah. The book has these great examples of brain scans between the two groups and shows just how big of an impact this has on your ability to think and feel and light up those brains.

Speaker 2: So that's a healthy tree and that's a toxic tree. And every experience we have becomes a physical reality in our brain and our bodies in our DNA and our mind in three places. So if you're experiencing something toxic, it goes all over your brain, body, and mind. So you consume with the stuff. And if you told that this is not manageable, if you're told, Oh, you're having symptoms of a brain disease, and you're just going to have to live with it, where's the hope so people don't know they can change. So my message, and it sounds like your message too, is one of, Hey, listen, if you're feeling depressed or anxious, you being a normal human life is challenging, especially now in the pandemic with all the unfamiliarity and threats and so on. But we were already in a terrible place before that. In fact, humanity has always been on this.

Speaker 2: This is not anything new. The whole thing of we've got one in four people with depression and one in five with anxiety and mental health is on the increase. That is just scary statistics, what the tooth is. And he has a real truth. A hundred percent of people have anxiety, depression, fear, worry to predation, just at different varying levels, different continuum, different life experiences, but it's very normal. And the big key thing is, is that if we don't manage that, if we don't see it as a helpful messenger and then manage it, go from helpful messenger awareness to beyond that, you're going to get stuck in that. And that's what people don't change. Yeah.

Speaker 1: We actually give them hope. Many people feel like they're stuck in this position and there's nothing they can do about it. And part of that is we are taught and we believe that planting those toxic trees may help us. It's a pattern that we pick up from our family, from society. What do you say to those of us who maybe have a forest of toxics trees right now who want to start planning some healthy trees, some new beliefs and thoughts that can empower them instead of harm?

Speaker 2: Well, that's an excellent question too. And so glad you mentioned forest, because we literally do have a forest in our mind and in our brain. So these trees, every experience that you've ever had from a certain point in the room to the age that you're at now has been translated by your mind, into your brain, as these protein structures. And this is the reality of it. And that hopefully most of them are this, but there's also a lot of these and some will have more of these and these, and some of these are huge and someone not so big. And so we have this huge, huge forest. And so if that is in our unconscious mind and in our brain, and essentially what we've got to do is we've got to learn to pay attention to the signals that these are producing. And we've got to then capture those.

Speaker 2: Then you've got to embrace and process and reconceptualize. You can't just be aware. You can't just basically say, okay, so here's the thing in my life. I'm just going to numb it with a drug that's like going into a garden with weeds and you go to wheat and all you do is chop that to head off. It's still got a root it's going to grow straight back. So when you use drugs or you use conditioning type sort of conditioning behaviors and that kind of thing, it doesn't deal with core issue. The only way out is through. So you have to then pay attention to these things, the signals and the ones that are the most dominant will give you the loudest signals. It's a constant process of listening to the signals and then working through them in a very systematic way. So we should be much more systematic, much more organized with online management.

Speaker 2: You know, we get that with exercise. You don't just go to work at once. You've got five or six times a week. You eat healthy every day, but the mind you think, Oh, quick fix, give me the seven steps, the five steps, quick fix mentality. It doesn't work like that. You have to treat your mind in exactly the way that you teach your body. You feed your teeth every day, clean up as I mentioned. So you've got to cleanup your mind everyday. So it's a matter of responding to these in the order of the most dominant signal. And then working through those in cycles of 63 days. And the work that I've done then Europe, which is the system I've developed is called the new cycle. It's not a new technique. It doesn't replace therapy or counseling or coaching. It's simply is how you, from a neuroscientific perspective, how do you use your mind to get your mind under control to drive the neuroplasticity of your brain?

Speaker 2: So that is not a tech gives people hope and anyone doesn't matter who you are. You do not need to be a PhD or a therapist to be able to manage your mind. When you think of it like this, you're going to therapy or coaching or counseling. And people come to you for that using them maybe one or two hours a week, but you've got to live with yourself 24 seven. So in order to live with yourself, that's what I bring to the table. I bring that first base where it's not the priority, or you've got to first get your mind working for, you've got to know how to manage your mind because you live with your mind, you live with yourself. And then when you do that, then the staff that you teach, they're going to respond so much more efficiently too, because your mind is ready to receive. I mean, if you're not ready to receive that great new eating plan and that diet, and you're just going to nod your head and they get the information, and it's nice to know, but you never going to apply it. So it's going to your, mind's got to be right.

Speaker 1: That example again, of the toxic tree, many of us fall into this pattern where we're chopping off some branches. We've identified that this is a toxic belief, but it's easier to go on a run or rush it under the rug, or take some drugs or eat some food to make us feel good and deal with it. But it's getting to the root and pulling it out and allowing the great plants, the healthy plants to grow and create those new pathways in your brain that stimulate you to success. I think it's that recognition of how do I actually pull this out versus just deal with it. And many of us are going through life of just dealing with it and it's created unhealthy relationship with our mind.

Speaker 2: So good. That's such a brilliant example. You know, often use the analogy of this being a very, you know, that from snow white, the poison apples. So this, this tree is like full of poison apples. This elder living date in game of Thrones. I mean, this is not dead. It looks deep, but this is what we living with. And if you don't manage it, imagine this is full of apples. And if you go up and you just bump it slightly, the Apple starts falling on your head. And you're just like knocked after all. That's how we go in the round. We feel knocked out. We feel overwhelmed about all these things hitting us, but we actually can control that state. It doesn't mean they got to go away. You've got to deal with the stuff and the only way artists through. So the only way to actually reconceptualize and reconstruct this tree is to go through a process.

Speaker 2: And it does take time. We all think it takes 21 days to build a habit, but it's actually 63. And there's been so much misinformation around that. That's why I actually did the research is about five studies done in the world. Mines one of them showing that it doesn't take 21 days, but it takes a full 63 days to form a habit that actually changes behavior, not just a little habit, but habit that actually changes behavior. So things happen in 21 days, but not sufficient to change behavior. So as we need to get much more systematized and organized in how are we going to find the roots and put it up? Otherwise you're just like dealing and we got to make mistakes, but that's part of it missing us needs to be accepted changed within messiness. We can grow, repeat, and grow. But if we deny messiness and pretend it's not there, then it just festers under the surface.

Speaker 2: And we see that 3% of leaders, only 3% of leaders and you guys would be leaders. So you'd be in this 3% because you have a community that you influence. Only 3% of leaders are talking about mental health or having these kinds of conversations. If anyone's backing up, go to the doctor, you know, think of it like this. You go to dinner with a bunch of friends and you sit down and you say, anyone knows you've been going through something. And then you sit down and say, I went to the doctor to psychiatrists a day and they told me I have a neuropsychiatric brain disease that I have this neuro biological thing going on in my brain. And that I have clinical depression. I mean already, you're looking at them, okay. Now what do I do? How do I treat them? You got to look at them differently.

Speaker 2: But if you went to your [inaudible] same person, take that away. Would I just see it? And you say, Hey, I've had the most awful week. This has happened. That has happened. This and that triggered all these reactions from the place. And I suddenly had these fish backs and I realize this, and I'm in therapy and people will say, Oh wow. How can we help you? They'll lean in. And you've got community, you've got interaction. You've got deep, meaningful connections. And that's how we process. That's what we supposed to be doing. We supposed to be being allowed to have our story validated. But just to say, you are in it, you are clinically depressed as an it and insecure in a box. Now you've got to love. See, we used to hope, but just the mere act of shifting your perspective has already placed you in a more resilient position. Keeping it increases your vulnerability to disease by 35 to 98%. That's insane. But by saying, Hey, this is okay. It's okay to be a mess. I'm going to clean it. No matter how long it takes that decreases that resilience, that vulnerability to disease. It's just so logical to, for us to apply. But we in a world that doesn't apply that kind of logic. Unfortunately, that's why I do what I do

Speaker 3: Well to go along with that, I always end up saying this to me. It's very important to understand this, which is I've been eating my whole life, but I didn't learn how to eat until I was in my late twenties, early thirties. I know exercise is good for me, but I didn't really learn how to exercise. And even to what you said of, there's a difference between going to the gym, because I feel like I have to, to I'm going to the gym because this makes me feel great. And this makes me better. That's two different mentalities. And then lastly, well, I've been thinking this way, my whole entire life, but no one trained me or told me that I could change the way my thought processes, my cognitive processes. And I had to come to that and through self-development and he's, there's three main areas that why are we not paying attention to these more when they dictate our life experience on what it's going to have. And more importantly, the ripple effect that it has in society and the people that are closest to them.

Speaker 2: Oh, brilliant, brilliant insights. And I wish more people had your insights. I agree with you. This isn't a skill that we should be glossing over. Now. There's a lot more awareness than there is some kind of, you know, awareness of eating, but you know, you don't get your mind, right? You won't learn it anyway.

Speaker 3: It's very easy to see who benefits from a style of eating that we had learned with the four food groups and everything else that goes with that, which is as you start to learn, you're like, wait a minute. This is not what I was eating as a child or what I was told in the middle of Saturday morning cartoons as I had a giant bowl of sugar with a big spoon in it. So it's very easy to follow the money trail, but, but with that, there is a bunch of those conventional wisdoms that need to be attacked and scrutinized because we're paying the price for now. And as you mentioned with the I'm absolutely terrified because I don't see any of the things that we are all discussing here, being propagated through mainstream news. All we keep hearing is things that are counter to our thought process. And you discussed this in, and you've mentioned it in several different ways here already of the way we think forces certain narratives and then a chemical reaction that goes with that. How are we supposed to be resilient and healthy in the face of a pandemic when we're being fed gloom and doom 24 seven

Speaker 2: It's to be bathed and toxic force. I mean, you really all, we literally living in it and there's some good, obviously in amongst it. And thank goodness for the wellness industry, that's countering this and that. And thank goodness for social media, that there is a level of it. There is a grassroots movement and how many scientists have jumped on board in that, in this grass? So thank goodness. That's the, that's the great part of technology 40 years ago, just to kind of kind of paint a picture of the industrialized food movement. The big money-making machine began at the same time as the psychotropic money machine began. And at the same time, technology was developing and technology is fantastic without it'd be, it'd be all, no we'd suffer, but mismanagement of technologies, to be fair, we got to teach ourselves how to use technology. You've got to teach our kids.

Speaker 2: You've got to have breaks from the screen. You've got to you, can't just gather data. You have to process data. So we have changed eating habits. We have changed how we move. We've changed all these things over there, and we've changed how we look at the human. So humans become a machine that you feed with all this junk and that you feed it, all this technology and that if they feel sick and break down, Oh, it's something. And he had to give another chemical. And that make an avatar view has resulted in people dying younger. And yes, they're propagating it now with the media. It's crazy

Speaker 3: Caroline. And here's another one. Our communication has changed, which feeds that toxic tree AIJ. And I were just discussing this in our marketing materials. When it comes to getting people's attention, you need to use absolutes. You always or never do this, or stop doing this to get people's attention. However, listening to some of your work, we have to use them in advertising and marketing, but you don't want to talk to your significant other with using you never, or you always are using these absolutes because the narrative that, that forms in somebody's mind feeds that toxicity and their overall health.

Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely. It's so true. And absorbing it between the time that you open your eyes and you go to bed at night, you are being exposed to somewhere between 8,000 and 10,000 different experiences. And every one of those experiences is being processed through your mind. And your mind is literally this gravitational field that keeps you IPO'ed genetically keeps your brain and body alive. So no mind dead person. And it's so great, but it's scientific. You can talk about the incredible work done by Nobel prize winners in gravitational fields. And each of us has our own unique one, but those gravitational fields are supposed to be kind of quite flowy like the sea. And then when we are in a mind management state, we can have stuff going on, but if we don't mind mentioning state, it looks different in the brain too, in the unmanaged.

Speaker 2: So that energy goes through the brain and then that the brain responds energetically. Okay. So now, if we are based in this toxicity coming at us from every angle and we are not managing, we are literally sitting on a million different Apple trees hitting us with poison apples. We have to teach the resilience to be able to stand back and say, Hey, I don't want that in my head. And we can, but we have been almost there to believe that we can't. I mean, generation Z and the millennials down are the first generation to grow up. So drugged. They are the most drugged generation ever in history, which is insane. 20, 30, 40 years ago. If I did a letter, let's say 30, even 30 years ago, I did a lecture at a school about the mind. The questions would be about depression, anxiety would.

Speaker 2: Now, if I did a lecture, they would say, okay, what's the medication for their treatment? What's the diagnosis. So it's all medicalized. Our kids are growing, not mine because they've grown up with the opposite of this. But in general, have grown up with this thing that, Hey, life's terrible. You have no control. It's all your brain and body. And you base this toxic environment. Now that toxic environment is actually changing. We can block it going in, but if you don't know how you're going to absorb it. And then if that's in your, children's your telomeres, which is your DNA. And I showed him, and these are actually a really good,

Speaker 1: Yeah. The book has these great examples of brain scans between the two groups and shows just how big of an impact this has on your ability to think and feel and light up those brain scans.

Speaker 2: Actually, I've managed to get my publisher to print kind of graphs, to show the impact. And this is looking inside the brain, these actual brain scans and looking at the energy response of the brain and gray is what you want. This is someone in the con in my experimental trial. I mean my travelers, they then experimental group. So this is what you want. This is like a normal way for alpha beta data gamma. You've heard of those things and it's supposed to feel like the beach, big waves, little ways, you know, the breakers on the beach, et cetera. This person doesn't have that. They've got a blueprint flat line. That means low energy, low oxygen, low blood flow holes in the brain. Literally non-functional this person was saying, I am depression. They'd been diagnosed with clinical depression, and they've been told you are depression. And that's all that they initial narrative on day.

Speaker 2: One was all about, I am depression, I'm hopeless. I can't do the psycho. Everything that they couldn't do. And this was a millennial and I have quite a lot about millennials in the section, actually. And this is one of the case studies. This person said, I am depression. Their biological age, biological age is that shows that the health of your body, the biological age was way older than their chronological age. In other words, they were aging rapidly. They had a body at day, one of a 60, 65, 70 year old. And they were in their thirties. Now you have that. You're making a million cells every second. And the quality of those cells is determined on your mind. And we see that in the telomeres on the DNA. So they had short, unhealthy telomeres, the experimental subjects. They ended the neuro cycle, which is what's in the spoken.

Speaker 2: I'm not saying that I have the elixir of life. I'm just saying that I've studied the mind brain. And this system has got 38 years of research on how you can get this crazy mind of Oz under control to change the biology. So this person who had had clinical depression, tried every drug, tried. Every treatment was checking out. They literally were checking out. This was the last attempt. Then did this neurosurgical data in an app version. They didn't get therapy. This is the key. You've got this power in you. You've got to live with yourself 24 seven. So they did this for 15 to 45 minutes. Every day. By day 21, this person was crying. They were saying, I'm not depression. I'm not hopeless. I am depressed because of depression is a signal. It's not my identity. That's why you see the green, which shows that their identity identities changing and shifting.

Speaker 2: And they say this I'm still anxious and still depressed. But I now know why. And I would see this even more green, more green. They said, okay, I understand depression has come from this and this and this depression is a signal. I know I'm still going to have depression, but I know what to do. And their behavior was changing. They were back at work. They were back sleeping. Again. This seeping had gone from literally not sleeping, having little bits of sleep at night to nearly 25% to 35% improved sleep by this point, which may not sound a lot, but it is a huge amount. Just 5% improvement in your sleep will change your life. And there were also back at work, back in relationships, they've gone from literally suicidal in 63 days to changing their behavior. And we, there's still tons of work. This is a lifestyle.

Speaker 2: So I'm going to just go away. Like they've got to clean their teeth. They've got to keep on doing this, this over the page very quickly as someone who didn't get the experiments, didn't get the neuro cycle. The red brain shows someone who's got a tsunami in their brain. It was a mess from that came in a logical age, crazy this person with the blue brain, they are the time they've got the gray brain, the first person over here. By the time we got to this point, the biological and chronological age, in other words, they were in their thirties and the body over here was in the sixties. By the time they got here, it was back to thirties. So in other words, the longevity increase and the vulnerability disease decreased. Their cortisone levels were through the roof. The inflammation was through the roof, but with my management, we changed that this particular person with a red brain, they just got worse and worse and worse as they became a week because of all the testing did, they became super aware, which goes to all the mindfulness practices. People talk about it. You know, you, you can become aware, but if you don't manage, if you've got to go beyond awareness, you have to manage what you're aware of. And they didn't. They became aware, but had no management. So they just got worse and worse and worse. Obviously we gave them the neuro cycle. Once the nine weeks we gave it to them because they were Rick. And that was the control versus, I mean, I can go on and on. I put a lot of examples in the book.

Speaker 1: It's such an important point to make, because many of us wouldn't pick up a smoking habit. We wouldn't start eating fast food every day because we know the risk, but we don't know the risk that these thoughts and beliefs have on our physical health. We think we're just trying to deal with it mentally. We're afraid to share it with our friends and family. We're ashamed of it because of the chemicals and the labels and everything else that go along with poor mental health. You know, we're all going through this struggle. And you know, I want to talk about an example that you gave on your podcast about using the neuro cycle, because I think everyone can relate to this. And you were talking about being on your way to the gym with your daughter and having an

Speaker 2: People love the story. I can't sorry. I don't mean to interrupt you, but this story seems to have got people. And it was just such a spontaneous thing. I said, Hey, let me do a podcast on this. Cause it was so effective for

Speaker 1: Real, because we've all been there. Certainly during this pandemic, especially where the people we know and love and care about still get on our nerves and something else triggers us. And we're in an argument. And then we feel intense regret afterwards. Like, why did I do that? Why did I say that? Why did I behave that way? So can you walk us through that example that you gave around using this neuro cycle? So we can actually start to manage this mess that we're all struggling with.

Speaker 2: We were on our way to work at orange theory and I had woken up like on each that day. And I was just like ratty and something was worrying in and I hadn't quite processed certain it effected my sleeps as tired or jumped in the car. It's two minutes away. We drove together and in the car, Dominic, I've got four kids, three work for me and my husband. So we are a family business to be easy. We live work together, even though studio is separate from the house, we still together 24 seven. So he, or she says something to me and I'm this wonderful mental health expert in weather. And I totally snap at her get into this argument really. I mean, there was no reason to react like I did. There was always just, I said the horrible things and she got upset with me and tell me, we had this little fight in three minutes, we managed to get ourselves totally worked up.

Speaker 2: We get to the orange theory. It's time to go in and register, get on the treadmill. And we had all this built up energy. So the first thing is that you have got this energy and it just never lost energy is transferred to either. I could keep that energy boiling and keep toxic and keep mad and mess up the whole day and do whatever or I could neuro cycle. So I've got onto the treadmill, took that energy that was built up in me from the argument and started on the treadmill. That crazy going as fast as I've never been that fast on the treadmill. And I started neuroscience thing. So first of all, I gathered awareness, gather, notice the word gathered and stand under the Apple tree and get into guilt, shame, condemnation, everything you're the mother uses. How can you do that? Does that?

Speaker 2: I just thought no, when I did it, I messed up our own it. I got frustrated. I got irritated. I gathered awareness of my sin. I didn't notice my body in the car. My body was very tense. I was driving. I drove too fast and I didn't go break the speed limit. But I mean, I was, I was, I was not driving well. I was a 10 step. My hands were staff. My body was in. So I took a notice of those signals. Then I also took notice of my behaviors. My words were short, tip sentences, harsh words, body movement, loud tone, all that stuff that just generated a mess. And it was making me a mess. You're a mess, EMEA mess. And then I noticed my perspective. I was Turkey. I'm right. You're wrong. You know what I mean? That's ridiculous. You'd makes making assumptions.

Speaker 2: You don't know what the other person's thinking. The quantum physics shows us that never assume because you're going to be at least 70% chance of being wrong. And you should always give the other person a chance to explain before you jump to conclusions. And I know all of this, but in that moment I didn't do it. So I gathered awareness of those and I reflected and I, and I see, well, he says, you should have done this, but you didn't do this. Why is a reason why showed up like that that morning? Why didn't I do that? Instead of condemning myself, I wanted to know why so I could fix it is a huge difference. See, I could feel totally bad and guilty as a parent and as a leader in mental health, or I could say, okay, own it. What did you do on this?

Speaker 2: A reason why showed up like that? So that my reflection, which is the second step, which is ask, answer, discuss, put the thoughts on trial, put those things on trial. But I gathered just very quickly. I didn't stand under the Apple tree. I stood back and I controlled it. I picked the apples, controlling it with my wise mind, which is your survival mind and the messy mind. So in the day when we act two and we process our active mind, our conscious mind is very messy. And we need a wise mind, which has a wide full of survival optimism bias. Knowing in, I know our mind and Wyatt for that are bolded. You could talk about Nobel prize, winning scientists. Talk about the biology of the brain and body while we don't have any structures for this. So in this happens, it distorts and creates the damage in the brain and the body.

Speaker 2: That's why we got the telomeres and increased cortisol and blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. So in doing this process, as soon as I decided to gather awareness and reflect and you know, do this on the treadmill, the minute I did that, I immediately made streets work for me. Instead of against me, I shifted those 1400 neurophysiological responses. So I was in a more resilient state. I increased blood flow to the front of my brain so that I could increase my decision-making and drop my impulsivity in the argument. I was impulsive doing the gather awareness, doing the reflect. And then the third step is right now, obviously I don't have a pen and paper on the treatment. So in the quick, in the moment, what you do for the third step is you visualize like you making a movie and you watch the whole thing.

Speaker 2: I rewatched from the time I left the house to the time I got to orange theory and got in the car on the table, what did I do? I really looked at my body movements, my language. So that was like getting that, that was writing. Then the fourth step is it was a big mess. Let's make sense of addicts, do a mental autopsy. Why was I like that? And that's where I got to the point where I realized, okay, it was because I work at EG. I work at BG because I hadn't resolved something from the night before. And something that she had said had triggered my concern about that particular issue. So now I had all the reasons. So what's my first step act of rejection. Okay, well, I fix it now, but I want to get the best out of this orange theory.

Speaker 2: I want to keep my mindset correct. So I don't lose my benefits here. And my active reaches to catch your eye, which I did. She was doing in your cycle at the same time. According to this big smile forgiveness happened, we both did our workout afterwards. It was a race to see who could say, sorry, first. Now there's an example of real life action. We are caught that I become so self regulated that I can manage and catch. And I say that in my research, you can become 81% in control of these emotions. And just getting honestly, 10% control. You will feel like a different few human it's that out of control, that that center I've got no agency that took be hate.

Speaker 1: There are so many points in there. The one thing that really struck me about it was the fact that you now have that ability to realize all the other reasons that this was firing instead of Lincoln to her and her behavior and just blame her. And many of us just fall to that, the fault this person did something to me, this person wronged me. It's this person's fault because that's easier than taking ownership and responsibility of the unmanaged mess that you have going on. And that toxic forest that you've just continued to let grow without dealing with. And that metaphor of a mess. You know, many of us wait until spring cleaning, or it just gets so overwhelming that we have to do it. And you bring up a great point that this is something that you're actively working on. You know this, but you still have to actively work on this. And, and that's really what I wanted our audience to see. One is a real life example and two, that this is something that we have control over, but we have to work on much like going to see the trainer go into the grocery store to pick the right foods, not the wrong foods. We have to do the exact same thing mentally to succeed.

Speaker 2: Absolutely. You've nailed it. The, and it's, it's, it's a process. It does take time. It does take work and that's exactly, but you can become more self regulated and we see from neuroscience, you can actually do this every 10 seconds. When you consciously awake, you can want it to everything you're doing every 10 seconds. I am not asking you to set your watch. That's not what I'm doing. It's the concept. The concept is that when you conscious, you actually are able to monitor like we are with each other. We can see each other's faces. That's what we should be doing all the time. As we speaking, what is the con, the way you've constructed your sentence and deliver that? What impact has that had on that person? Did they understand you? Did they misunderstand you? Have you upset them? Can you adjust your communication? We can get so fast that they email.

Speaker 2: How did you respond? How's this make you feel? Or you making assumptions. You know, it's constantly living in that. Watch your signals re ask them. You can do it in five seconds. Once you're in that system, you can regulate like that. And then when you're doing that, it's so much easier to deal with the big stuff, because in the regulating, the little things you start seeing, Oh gosh, this is a pack. I always get upset when I get that kind of communication or there kind of trigger seem more depressed than normal. I'm really getting achy about these things. Like what does, since it's out of me, it's wrong. I don't know what's true. What's going on. So as soon as you stop making that, you can recognize those. It's also cycles from the past. We have stuff that passes through epigenetic through the generation. And we say things like, Oh gosh, I'm dealing with my mother did one being with my father did, or, you know, that's a pack net cost to the sperm and the ova, literally these things pass through.

Speaker 2: And they, but they don't mean that you're going to do them automatically. It just means that you have the potential, but you can walk those out too. You can rip those out and be conceptualized. So the process is to embrace and process and reconceptualize and reconceptualize is not express. Why was it not the situation, the new situation. And then you just, you know, that could get us something. You just completely covered it up with a Z. You're not putting a bandaid. That's abandoned approach. What you're doing is you're saying, this is the situation. This is how I should be. This is the mace. This is the argument. This is why I got the, this is where I should be. So now I'm going to do X. I'm going to put them together. Reconceptualize is the recognition that I have done something wrong, but I can manage it.

Speaker 2: I can change it around. I can see it from another angle. So it's like taking an ugly old house. This is a really easy example. And you buy a house, you're going to renovate it and you take photos and it's ugly. And it's moldy corporates and terrible lighting and just awful dark. And you bash the whole thing down because it's a great neighborhood. And you rebuild this beautiful new space. Now you're living in this beautiful new three constructed, but you still remember how it was, but you're living in the new space. So you've changed how the past plays out into your future. You get read to views, traumatized, bullied, war, trauma, whatever. That's terrible stuff. That's the origin. That's the source of that's the root. Everything starts there. This is your interpretation of that. So basically what you're doing is you are deconstructing and you reconstructing that into this.

Speaker 2: An example of this root concept is that right now we talking about mental health, some of that stuff. So people not taking our words and at 400 billion actions per second are converting those words into these little protein trees in your brain. That our thoughts, the roots are what I'm saying. And our discussion is X. The source this over here is the everyone's listening and watching. It's their interpretation of what they're hearing in terms of what it means to them in terms of the life experience. So we all interpret this differently. That's how uniqueness. So this is great. This is healthy, but if it's toxic and you've been abused, then this over here is we're into this. The origin is the source. This is your interpretation of it. So therefore this is going to be how you see yourself. Maybe that's rape and abuse. As a child, shame can form relationships.

Speaker 2: It's so toxic because it shouldn't have happened. So you blame yourself because you don't know how to make sense of it. As a child, this shows up it anxiety, maybe suicidal thoughts and battling with relationships low. Self-esteem just not whatever, because it's just so painful, but that can be changed when you face it. So for the big stuff like that, you need to work on the five steps in a more systematic way. And then you do the five steps slower over 15 to 45 minutes daily. And in the first 21 days, you're going to take this, identify it, embrace it and reconceptualize it. So you, the five steps is helping you look at the signals to find the roots, the signals, and you're going through the five steps consecutively each day, something new is revealed. And then I've shown in the research. What happens like at each time point.

Speaker 2: So by day 21, we have four gamma peaks, which means that we are actually deconstructive, you've got the new house. So we've actually not changed it. The cost is in there. You can still talk about your past, but you've changed how it's playing out into the future. You've now managed that you own it. It doesn't own you, you control it. The pain is still there, but it's different. It's more like this is part of who I am. It's terrible. That you've disconnected. And then, but it's small in the forest. This is small at 21 days, this is too small. It does not have enough energy to get from the non-conscious, which is massive through the subconscious, which is a bridge into the conscious mind. And only when something's in the conscious mind consistently, then you're going to have a behavior change. So if you just bolt us and do nothing, you're not going to change your behavior.

Speaker 2: You're still going to be stuck. And that's when people say things like I've done the work, but I'm still, then it's another 10 years of therapy. You know, this is what happens. I mean, I was interviewing someone the other day who had extensive childhood trauma and religious trauma and all kinds of just one thing after another, and literally went to therapy for that 25 years, the majority of deck was just constantly going to circles until he actually realized he had to go the whole route, which was the extra 42 days as well. And also quite just be talking in circles, you've got to be deconstructing and reconstructing. It's, you know, it's a very organized systematized process. So you do that for 21 days, and then you get this little sort. And then from day 22 to 63, which is another six weeks, you just practice step five. It takes a minute of your day to 42 minutes, over 42 days. It's nothing. And that gives this thing enough energy to automatize it, which is the scientific word for making it a habit, which means that it's a very intelligent driving force, but it's strong enough now to impact your behavior

Speaker 1: In those situations, upon reflection, you know, looking at your behavior, looking at the reaction it caused in your daughter and feeling regret. That's one thing, many of us are walking into a situation where we know we may be triggered and we know we may get a negative reaction from the past. How do we prepare ourselves for those moments where we might be feeling anxiety, or we might be fearful, or that trauma in the past is holding us back from achieving the success that we want.

Speaker 2: My answer's going to be, you're going to have to neuro cycle, you're going to have to be going through the process. So one of the things you recognize to get to that insight that you've just delivered, you would have gone through a level of insight to find your triggers in the fourth step, which is the recheck that's when you start unpacking your activators or your triggers, and that's when you start developing the antidotes. So while you in that process, if possible, you don't want to get into those situations that will trigger you until you've got to the point of this thing, at least at this sort of three week, preferably at a 63 day Mark. And it's not always realistic because you probably living. It's very often, they'd be living with the actual perpetrators or, and then just how often it's unintentional. You can have two people that love each other in a family or in a work environment, but there's certain patterns from your past that they do something that triggers those.

Speaker 2: So this process of the neuroscience will help you identify those. And once you've identified them, then you can, let's say that there is a good relationship, but they trigger you because of just, maybe it could be a body movement. It could be a sound, a tone in the voice that then brings back the memory of that. And if you haven't processed that, have you surprised that you actually don't even know why you're being triggered? That's a lot of you get what we call a lot of Delta activity in the brain, the conscious brain. So in your wake, if you've got suppressed that you have way too much Delta in the conscious brain. And that means that you're going to have too much over here, down the middle and on the sides over here, you're going to have very hard bursts of high beta. And when there happens or wisdom drops and your impulsivity increases in a triggered state that fires up like crazy, that pattern that I've just described and that's in your brain is still controlled by your mind.

Speaker 2: So you can still get that under control. I mean, you can do a quick neuro cycle. You can do a teen second force breathing exercise, which I'll give you a bunch of techniques, what to do in that. So you can still gather yourself, but it does take a bit of practice. But the key there is to get to the point where you recognize what those triggers are. And then one of your active reaches may be maybe day 21. You will date 1815, or whatever you see, Hey, that person's facial expression or their intonation is triggering this. So you then can talk to that person say, actually, when you do this, this is what happens. Do you mind? I know it's not, you it's like your fault, but that is a trigger for me. So I have to do this in order to cope with that. And if you're going to be honest, so that's, it's those conversations that then can help in as you progress through and become healed over time, it might take multiple 63 days cycles. Those triggers become less and less troublesome and your antidotes become stronger and stronger and eventually can get to the point where you can, even if that is a triggering environment, you can be more in control. So there is hopefully

Speaker 3: This is what I think it is so important to understand the neuro cycle and how neuroplasticity works. Because with the technology that we have, everyone is using the emotional triggers and tools to get our attention because they know it works and we're being bombarded more so with these triggers than ever before in our history. And because of that, we have to be able to clean up that mental message, as you said, because we're being bombarded by these things constantly. And if you don't understand what those triggers are, as you mentioned, it's going to bring your positivity up and drop the wisdom and where you're behaving in a manner that you wouldn't normally yeah.

Speaker 2: You'll show up badly

Speaker 3: Haven. And it was so interesting about that as you're mentioning the triggers and some of your resources I brought up were emotional triggers of always and never. And, and these words that marketing uses, that's a direct example of marketing, understanding emotional triggers and using them. But without being marketed to 24 seven, while we're standing in front of our computers, we rarely encounter those sort of emotional triggers unless we're in a heated conversation with somebody in our life. But as we go about our day, there's nobody trying to get our attention in that manner. But the minute we open our laptop, it's straight in our face and we're going to find the capacity to go after our goals and our desires. We're going to have to learn how to manage our mind.

Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely cool. It drives everything. I love the point that you made in it's so relevant because we have to manage technology, which is one of the contributing factors to people dying younger, because we just are bombarded and we can discipline and control it. But no one's teaching it. No one's saying this is what you do. You know? And people say, give yourself a cell phone, fast of technology fast. It's not just a one off thing. It is actually, how do you manage it? Exactly. It's the whole mindset like the gym and you know, the exercise and it's the mindset I'm going to go in. And if I see something's triggering me, I'm not going to look at that feed. You know, if I'm seeing an article or a bunch of articles have left 15 minutes and I've been scrolling through and I'm getting mad begging as the triggers, that's not good for you.

Speaker 2: So I'm going to help you do, you know, you can select one, whatever. There's so many ways that we can manage that. That's where the neuro psych was fantastic because you can quickly pick up with the technology triggers are, and you can kind of catch those and get them under control because it just translates as you do every time you do it, the more you do it, like anything, 63 days of neuroscience, if you are, and you're a cyclist seriously, and your self regulation has increased to the point where you, it's almost like unrecognizable, people will turn around and say, I have what you have. I mean, literally that's what people have noticed as they start doing this. And there's this, that acceptance that you can make a mess. Okay? But as long as you do something about it,

Speaker 1: And when you clean up that mental mess, you actually are a better person in every relationship in your life. It's your responsibility to manage that mess. It's not put it on. Others expect others to just deal with you. You need to deal with yourself. Our last question for you. We love asking every guest who joins us, what is your X factor? What does that mindset or skill set that makes you so successful?

Speaker 2: I think, you know, my answer it's self-regulation, that is key because if you self-regulate, you can see what you're doing and you can manage it. So self regulating my thinking, feeling choosing. So it's my management. That's my expecta. It's absolutely changed my life. Going from being a therapist, teaching

Speaker 3: People in a therapeutic context to actually applying it in my life as a woman and mother, a wife. And just in the work that I do that has been transformational.

Speaker 1: Thank you so much for the great examples and the props. We're so excited for everyone to enjoy the video version of this podcast. This is such a great conversation.

Speaker 3: If anyone's just listening. The picture of the damage, rotten tree is going to bring in my, in my mind, and it's such a good vision

Speaker 1: Show representation of what's going on. I'm ready to start pruning my forest. Thank you so much, doctor.

Speaker 3: Thank you so much. It's been great talking to you. Thank you. Thank you. [inaudible] I gotta say her excitement came through on this podcast and I hope our listeners were able to follow along. There was a few things that she was holding up and those in YouTube will be able to see it. One was a skull that had a brain and the other was a tree and there was a few other pieces. She held up her book and I hope that translated to you guys out there in podcast land.

Speaker 1: I know it's one of our favorite subjects neuro-plasticity and how we can actually rewire our brains for success. And I love that she's so open and honest about her own mental mess as we all have it. And it's so aspirational to know even the experts struggle with these things, but it's all about learning the tools to be more successful.

Speaker 3: Hey Jay, we got a shout out here from a place that I've never heard of before, and I'm going to have to do some researching, but I'm going to read it to you. It's from Joe Tate. And she says, Hey guys, I hope both of you are well and happy. I just wanted to say that I've discovered your fabulous podcast and absolutely love listening to it. I'm listening all the way from isle of man. You've maybe not have heard of this gorgeous little Island, but just wanted to let you know that you are making a difference in far away places. Well, thank you, Joe Tay. Then as I said, I'm going to be reading up on Allah man, a J what do you know of this far away destination?

Speaker 1: I'd have to Google it to be honest, but I'm excited about the fact that the podcast is worldwide. And we have so many listeners all over the world who share their praises. We would love to hear from you wherever on this globe. You are, you can share your thoughts, feelings, or ask us questions@questionsattheartofcharm.com or find us on social media at the art of charm on your favorite social platforms, Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter,

Speaker 3: Be sure to tag us. We'll definitely share it.

Speaker 1: That's right. If you had a favorite part of this show, take a screenshot and tag us at the art of charm. We love sharing it with our audience and seeing what parts of each episode you enjoy.

Speaker 3: Are you tired of settling for anything less than extraordinary? Do you know that you deserve more from your relationships career in life? Well, you can work directly with, to unlock your

Speaker 1: X factor, to succeed in business love in life. Hidden inside of you is the potential to build your dream life and extraordinary career relationships and lifestyle. You just need a way to unlock it

Speaker 3: Because let's face it. You deserve more than that.

Speaker 1: Unsatisfying work, lackluster relationships, or even worse, boring nights and weekends. It's time to unleash your inner superhero.

Speaker 3: Join our X-Factor accelerator and get mentorship from me and Aja for an entire year. From promotions and raises to engagements. We are proud of our X-Factor accelerator members.

Speaker 1: We can't wait for you to join head over, to unlock your X-Factor dot com to apply today. That's right. Unlock your X factor.com to apply, to join our incredible mentorship group today, before we go, could you do us and the entire team here, a huge favor, open up Apple podcasts and leave us a review rate this show and let us know how much you enjoy the podcast. It means the world to us, and it helps amazing guests like Dr. Lee find us.

Speaker 3: The art of charm podcast is produced by Michael Harold and Eric Montgomery until next week. I'm Johnny

Speaker 1: And I'm a J have an Epic week.

Speaker 4: [inaudible].

Speaker 1: One of my close friends, her name is [inaudible] ear. She's a child psychologist. She talks about her kids that when they come to her and say to her mommy I'm bored. She always responds in the same way. And she says, that's okay, sweetheart. Just to be bored with dignity.

Speaker 2: Welcome back to the art of charm podcast. The show designed to help you win at work love and life. We know you have what it takes to reach your full potential. And that's why every week, Johnny and I are here to share with you interviews and strategies to help you develop the right social skills and mindsets to succeed.

Speaker 3: You shouldn't have to settle for anything less than extraordinary I'm AIJ and I'm Johnny,

Speaker 2: You heard this month's toolbox episode on emotional bids. Well, if you haven't, now's the time to pause this, go back to that podcast player and download the episode for everyone who has thank you for the great feedback we love hearing from you. And if you're enjoying the show, take a screenshot on your favorite podcast player and tag us on social media at the art of charm.

Speaker 3: Don't forget to grab your free emotional bids screensaver to keep handy in conversation.

Speaker 2: That's right. We put together the nine emotional bids we talked about in that toolbox episode as a free download for all of you in our audience, go to the art of charm.com/bids to download for free. That's the art of charm.com/b I D S. Now, if you want to take your connections to the next level and actually practice emotional bids. Well, this month X factor accelerator implementation session is dedicated to emotional bids and turning towards them. Inside our X-Factor accelerator. We host multiple implementation sessions each and every month to supercharge your social skills and get feedback directly from our,

Speaker 3: You want to be part of the fun. Join our group of top performers and get a year of mentorship directly from us. Head on over to unlock your X factor.com today to apply, to join and level up your conversation, connection and confidence.

Speaker 2: Thank you everyone for tuning in let's kick off today's show today, we're talking to Dr. Tal Ben Shahar, Tal venture har is a best-selling author and lecture. He's taught two of the largest classes in Harvard university's history, positive psychology, and the psychology of leadership today, tall consults and lectures around the world to executives in multinational corporations, the public and at risk populations, the topics he lectures on include leadership, happiness, education, innovation, ethics, self-esteem resilience goal-setting and mindfulness. His books have been translated in more than 25 languages and have appeared on bestsellers lists around the world. Tall is a serial entrepreneur and is most recently the co-founder and chief learning officer of the happiness studies Academy. An avid sportsman tallest is one the U S intercollegiate, an Israeli national squash championships today for exercise. He swims dances and practices yoga. He obtained his PhD in organizational behavior and a BA philosophy and psychology from Harvard. Welcome to the show tall.

Speaker 3: We'll go ahead and get started. Sound good? Great. So one of the things I was laughing, you had this in your book about being the positive psychology guy and the happiness guy that people expect you to be happy all the time. Now that branding mistake we have made, we are the art of charm and everyone expects us to be charming all the time. However, when you are doing things in life, there are things that you implement and boundaries that you set up to protect yourself. And sometimes they don't always come off as charming, and I'm guessing much in the same way, those things don't always come off as you being so happy. So please tell us about that.

Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, so I, when I first taught my class, a student came up to me and said, my join you for lunch. And I said, sure. And then he said, tell her, Hey, you're teaching a class on happiness. And I said, yeah, positive psychology. And then he said, but you know, tell now that you're teaching this class, you've got to watch out. And I said, what? And he said, you've got to be careful. And I said, why? And he said, because if I see unhappy, I'll tell your students, you know, ever since then I've been getting this. So, so often. And I tell my students and I, you know, I tell whoever is ready to listen, that there are only two kinds of people who do not experience painful emotions, the psychopaths and the dead. And I'm nice, neither a psychopath nor dead. And hence I go through the ups and the downs, like, like everyone else does.

Speaker 2: And I think that's an important way to jump into this subject of happiness, because there are so many myths and misconceptions about that exact idea, being happy all the time and the singular pursuit of happiness. Now, the study of positive psychology. I know there are a lot of myths that we're trying to break that normal society views as what happiness is, what are some of those myths or misconceptions?

Speaker 1: Yeah. So, so beyond the, uh, the unbroken chain of, uh, pleasurable emotions, it's also the fact that, uh, happiness is about pleasure and it's not, happiness is much more than, than happiness. Yes. Is partially about pleasurable emotions. Uh, it's also about a deep sense of meaning. And sometimes what we do that is meaningful to us doesn't necessarily provide pleasure. It's very much about relationships. It's very much about thinking and scholarship then mates at times be difficult and hard. And, uh, and of course it's, it's related to our, our physical well-being our, our bodies. So happiness is a multifaceted construct. It's not just a cat. I'm smiling now I'm on the beach and having fun. I'm having an ice cream. Oh, it makes me so happy. That is, uh, yeah, it's pleasurable. It's part of the equation, but a small part.

Speaker 2: Well, what's interesting is everything you listed also causes me great frustration. Doesn't always make friends, you know, accountability, those sorts of things. So it's interesting how we tend to equate pleasure and that seeking of pleasure all the time with happiness, but that can also lead us astray and keep us from the real happiness that we want in life.

Speaker 1: My first book on happiness, I wrote about the lasagna principle. I mean, two food metaphors, lasagna is my favorite food. You know, especially the way my mom makes it and yet, and yet it's not that I want lasagna every day, all day, you know, even lasagna in it. I want in, in moderation. And you know, that's another myth that people think, okay. So I'm going to find that one thing that's going to make me happy, and then I'm going to do it all the time. Or then one person who will make that's another myth who will make me happy. And then we're just gonna live happily ever after all good things as Aristotle reminded us in moderation.

Speaker 2: Well, I think the pandemic has shown us that many of the things that we want miss and need, we're not even getting in moderation and new challenges have arisen Johnny and I joined one of your happiness studies Academy webinars. And you talked about some learnings that you had personally around happiness through the pandemic. So what has this last year taught you personally about happiness in your own life?

Speaker 1: Yeah. Um, the first thing, I mean, the first challenge that I had is even justifying doing happiness during this time. So one of my friends, uh, quipped, half joking saying, Ty, I think we should quarantine happiness until all this, these over. And, you know, he made a point. The thing that I learned most about happiness or the science of happiness is, uh, how important the fundamentals are. So many people say, so, are you doing things differently now? Or what are you doing differently than ice? And my response is that I do the same things, but more often. So for example, you know, physical exercise is extremely important, not just for physical wellbeing, for a psychological wellbeing. You know, in fact working works in the same way as a, as our most powerful psychiatric medication. So I used to exercise three times a week, religiously today during over the past year, it's been five times a week.

Speaker 1: Why? Because I felt like I needed it. I often, when, you know, when, when I go out for a run for an exercise or my wife did it, we tell one another, well, I'm just going to get my fix. And it actually literally works in the same way. You know, we call it the wonder drug. So I need that fixed three times a week. Now I'm up to the quota to, uh, five times a week. Um, keeping a journal. I've been keeping a journal since I was, uh, 14 or so. And I certainly continued keeping a journal into adulthood after I saw the research on journaling and I know how much it helps, but I did it, you know, two or three weeks when I felt like it during that pandemic, there isn't a week that goes past without at least one or two entries saying things just more of it. Many, uh, people would tell me, for example, well, we're so busy now, or we're so stressed or I don't have time to exercise or journal now is the time when we need to do more of it.

Speaker 3: I remember when the pandemic, at this point as we're recording this almost a year ago, I believe it was, it was middle of March, March 13th, 16th, at least for us here in America, where things definitely got to an alarming situation and upon looking at what was coming and so much uncertainty, there was certain habits habits for myself that I knew that I would have to dig into in order to work through that. And my happiness is a big part of my productivity. If I'm happy, if I'm feeling good, I'm going to be more interested in working. And we were in the middle of a pivot ourselves for our company and the, with the pandemic, our needs to be more so online was even more apparent and remembering how much work was going to be involved and, uh, where, where we were at heading into that.

Speaker 3: In fact, I doubled down on all the habits that I did have. In fact, I got even more regimented with my workouts and with my eating, however, I was able to keep that up for about a month. Uh, but it was just, it was, it was overwhelming and too much. And what we learned was it was going to be more of a marathon than a sprint in order to get to the other side of that. Uh, any thoughts for yourself about all that uncertainty and what was coming and how you planned on using your work and studies to roll through that?

Speaker 1: Yeah, so, you know, so there were things that I planned and, and, you know, I knew that work and I also, um, you know, was an unfamiliar with the work on, uh, dealing with hardships and difficulties, which is very much part of the science of happiness, but there were some things that I didn't expect. For instance, one thing that I've been doing more of over the past year is I've been watching more TV now, generally, I, I didn't switch the TV on much, you know, as far as I was concerned, we wouldn't have had a TV at home, but I found, uh, the distraction through, um, uh, comedy or binge watching a series so incredibly helpful. And, you know, I was, I was thinking about it and as I was prepared, I was going to lecture on it tonight, looked for the word distraction on, uh, on Google. And I only found negative connotations. How do I overcome distraction? How do I get distraction out of my life and so on and so on. Whereas distraction can be a blessing. And especially when we are bombarded by constant bad news. So having that distraction can be incredibly helpful. So, um, that's something that emerged then, you know, I've enjoyed, uh, some wonderful times alone with my family. Binge-watching

Speaker 2: Well, I think one of the biggest realizations for me during the pandemic was just the impact of that external media on my mental health and happiness and being more selective. Like I am with what I put in my body for food, what I consume mentally. And you bring up a great point because we were, and we still are in a barrage of bad news and a lot of the headlines are negative. So it's hard to feel happy and feel peace, even if things may be going well for you in that moment, when we're seeing how difficult this is for everyone around us. And certainly what's shown in the media. Do you have habits built up around your media consumption and social media consumption to keep that balance?

Speaker 1: Um, yes. Uh, I do. And I think in today's world pre during and post pandemic, we all need to create those habits. Why? Because otherwise we become victims. We become addicted to social media, to the TV universe. You know, when I grew up, there was one TV channel and, you know, that's what we watch. And we all watched the Dallas on Wednesday night at Nightrider was a Monday night, you know, later on dynasty came along and, you know, that is what we watched, you know, today you have 500 channels and, um, and you know, in movies that you, you know, that come out at the, at the speed of sound, so we need to create boundaries around our consumption because it's accessible. And, you know, as the social networks, so clearly pointed out, there are very, very smart people working at getting you stuck to that screen around the clock.

Speaker 1: And the only way to deal with that is by creating, uh, rituals, healthy rituals, rules, boundaries around it, and preferably not doing it alone. So having an accountability buddy or doing it as a family, you know, one of the, uh, one of the questions that I often ask when I speak to a couples is the following. I say, okay, so I want you to answer this question to yourself. Don't say it out loud. What is the first thing that you turn to in the morning when you open your eyes? And again, they're sitting next to their partner now, now everyone, of course, chuckles because it's not their partner, it's their smartphone that they, most of them turn to now we're addicted to those. And then my second question is, so if you were, um, an alcoholic, would you go to bed with a bottle of whiskey right next? You, of course not. You know, keep it as far away from you as possible provided you want to deal with your, uh, with your alcoholism. And yet we're addicted to this phone and we have it next to us in bed. We have to create rituals. We have to create boundaries. We have to, we have to, um, make it easier, not easy but easier for us to resist the lure of those sirens.

Speaker 2: And how do you do that in your household? Because many in our audience are cringing like myself thinking about how my phone comes first, but that has been a difficult boundary to build for, for both of us. So are there specific strategies you're implementing to create that ritual?

Speaker 1: Yeah. The idea essentially is to create what I've come to call islands of sanity, islands of sanity, both, uh, temporarily. And, uh, and in terms of a time sort of both time and space, uh, for example, there are certain areas that you don't bring the phone to, you know, it could be your kitchen or your dining hall. So when you are with your partner or friends or family, no phones, except for emergencies, of course, or there are certain times. So between, uh, for us between 4:30 PM and 8:30 PM, there are no screens. You know, the kids can jump around, they can do, you know, they can play basketball, they can, uh, they can talk, they can help around the house. They can be on the computer. So they have to even, even homework. So they have to do their homework, uh, before or after. And the reason we did it was because we tried many other things and they did just didn't work. Why? Because our willpower is just not strong enough to withstand the onslaught of those sirens. Again, I think there is a beautiful metaphor. And by the way, before we implemented these rules, um, we read about the sirens from the Odyssey and we had a, you know, a conversation around it. And why did a, dis-ease ask his sailors to tie him to the mast so that he wouldn't hurt himself?

Speaker 3: No, I'm quite curious with all the studies that you have done and what is been shown as the impact of social media on our happiness and what sort of information could you give our listeners for them to get wise to what's going on? Because as much as we talk about this, the first wave, when they hear anything negative about social media is like, it's, Oh, well, that's everybody else. That's not me. And it's not until we, we give hard numbers of people start actually paying attention.

Speaker 1: Yeah. So a couple of things, first of all, you know, it is important to, uh, also look at the upside of social media, you know, for example, um, one of my colleagues did research, showing that many introverts benefit from, uh, from social media because, uh, it's an opportunity for them to, to be social without the, um, the usual challenges that go along with it. Also, we meet people through social media. You know, I recently, um, got in touch with my BFF from the age of 10, between 10 and 12, and then we moved countries and we hadn't been in touch for almost 40 years. Thanks to social media. We're in touch again, you know, that's a real, real blessing. Um, so there is an upside to it. The thing that was always moderation, how do we manage that? And we have to manage it because, you know, Johnny, as you point out, we all struggle with it.

Speaker 1: The research is scary. I'll give you a couple of examples. Um, so this is Jean Twenge. She's a professor San Diego. And what she found was that, or her research revolves around teenagers. And every five years, we take a measure of, um, the mental health of teenagers in the United States, the very extensive, uh, study, a deep dive into their wellbeing. And every five years you see a, you know, up 1% down 1%, but generally stable over over the years. And, uh, between generations until this time compared to five years ago, levels of depression among teenagers in the us went up by over 30%, three, zero levels of suicide went up by over 30%. Now she ma unheard of this spike, unheard of. And she mined through the data, asking the question why, and came up with one answer. And I quote the ascendance of the smartphone.

Speaker 1: It's when kids stopped playing together in the sandbox, when they stopped having face to face in person interaction, when, um, the tiny, uh, gadget literally to control over their lives, over their communication and their interaction. Now it's very difficult to take it away from them because that is how they interact. You know, so if I tell my son, you know, no, um, no social media for, for a week, that means, you know, he won't know when his friends are going out. He won't know where, when they're actually meeting, he, you wonder what homework he has or how to do the homework. So, um, so they need it. Unfortunately, there is a real downside to it as well. We have to curb the exposure.

Speaker 2: So I have to ask, as many of our clients are parents struggling with this exact issue and certainly dealing with other households who don't have sanity islands, who don't have these boundaries. And of course, you know, children feeling left out from their unable to connect and communicate with these tools. So how are you able to implement these boundaries? And what steps did you take? How old were your children when this started for some of our parents in the audience who are struggling with this exact very phenomenon?

Speaker 1: Yes. So first of all, it's to recognize and accept the fact that it is a struggle. It's not easy for, uh, for us. And the thing is the reason why it's, it's so difficult is because we're the first generation going through it. You know, I was just talking to my friend yesterday and I said to him, you know, for my parents, it seemed like it was easier because, you know, yeah. They raised us, you know, they, they provided for us, they were amazing parents, but, you know, in the afternoon I would go out and play with friends and that was fine. You know, I would play soccer and hide and seek and, and, you know, go to friend's place and they would come to our place. And, um, you know, it was basically, you know, do whatever and, you know, that's how I learned empathy.

Speaker 1: And that's how I learned to negotiate and resolve conflict such important life skills. You don't develop those life skills when you're on social media, you don't develop it when you were playing video games. Some of it you do, but most of it, you, don't another very troubling study is about the levels of empathy among the young generation they've gone down. And, and again, as a result of too much time on the screen, not enough time playing in the sandbox together. So, um, today we're making it up as we go along. And, um, and it is very, so, so first of all, as parents, you know, to be easier on ourselves, first thing, second, just to put boundaries and, you know, the boundaries have to be whether it's around X number of hours in front of the screen, and there are more and more programs today that can limit screen time, you know, from within, uh, the smartphone.

Speaker 1: So utilize those. And, um, another thing in, in this, uh, I owe this to my, uh, uh, to my brother-in-law, um, you know, when I talked to him about it and he said, wow, you know, you sound like the, you know, the prophet of doom, your happiness professor come on. And then he said, you know, the way I think about it, instead of thinking about it, in terms of what they don't do, think about what they do do in other words, create alternatives. And what that means is that we need to put more times, so, okay, so they won't be on the screen, but what will they do instead? Will they play ball with their friends? Great. If possible, more challenging now in times of Corona, but maybe play a board game with their family. And that means with YouTube, and that means we can't use the screen as a babysitter. Uh, we just need to become more involved. And, um, you know, the nice thing about it is that as we become more involved, we also potentially find the treasures of happiness. The number one predictor of happiness is quality time. We spent with people we care about and who care about us. And many of us have forgotten that

Speaker 3: It is an incredibly important thing to remember. And when I look into the future, knowing that the next generation has less, less empathy, it terrifies me because I know how much and how important empathy has been for us to create what we have created for ourselves. So it makes me a bit nervous. In fact, uh, every time our producer gets it, uh, somebody else who's wants to send books. I always make sure that I get a physical copy because I'm so tired. I'm I stare at my screen enough and to be able to close my computer and go on the porch, what a, with a coffee and an open a book. It is, I look forward to those moments in, in my day, just talk about an Island of sanity and serenity, and, and for myself who grew up as, as gen X normalcy, you know, having their computer open as, as, as a work thing where kids though, it's, it's a mishmash of, that's where they play. That is where they're going to be working. That's where they study. Uh, that's an incredibly seems to me to be messy with all of those things connected to the same.

Speaker 2: Well, what struck me is the need for you to follow your own boundaries and set a good example, too. And I think that's also become a challenge in the house for a lot of parents who feel tied to their work and must check Slack. And, Oh, I have a late night email that I have to get to. We're often setting a poor example for our kids when they're seeing us gravitate to technology, instead of talk to our spouse, our partner, or engage with them.

Speaker 1: Yes. And, um, you know, and, and we need to realize how difficult it is to change those habits, because you're right. Most of the homes that I visit or have visited, you know, you see, it's not just the kids who are addicted, the parents are equally addicted. You know, we, we go out with friends and, and, you know, periodically, they would check. Now we didn't have smart phones 20 years ago. And, you know, we managed, okay. Um, and you know, I always say, unless you're an ambulance driver, it's okay to switch the phone off. And initially it's difficult. And after a while, you know, Johnny, I completely relate to what you say. You, you begin to crave those, uh, those items of sanity, or as you said, items of serenity, which I love and they're important. And they're important for us as parents, there is important for us to present as a role model for our, for our children. They're important for us physically, as well as psychologically.

Speaker 2: And now what me is. And I'm thinking of my, my great uncle who bless his heart loves watching TV, but he's happy with the antenna. He's got four channels. He doesn't want cable. He doesn't want all of the choices. And yet here we are with more choice than ever, but bored, frustrated, not finding happiness. So how much does this paradox of choice and overwhelming amounts of options and content actually make us more bored? I, I find it so fascinating. I'll stare at Netflix for 30 minutes and not pick anything and wonder I have so many options, but here I am sitting on the couch, bored.

Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, um, one of my close friends, her name is [inaudible], she's a child psychologist. She talks about her kids that when they, um, when they come to her and say to her mommy on board, she always responds in the same way. And she says, that's okay, sweetheart, just to be born with dignity. And I think that's a very important, uh, response then, you know, my kids already today, you know, they, they notice by heart, okay, daddy, I'll be bored with dignity. And that it's important to learn, to be bored for various reasons. Uh, one in this relies on, uh, the work of many psychologists, including Adam Grant who wrote originals. And, um, we need those quote unquote times when we're bored, because it's, during those times that very often we get our best ideas. Now it's no coincidence that, you know what we, you know, we get in the shower or we used to, again, my generation, we used to get it in the car today.

Speaker 1: We're on the phone in the car. So it's not a bored quote unquote time. So having those, um, free spaces where we aren't doing nothing is important, you know, there's so much talk to them about quality time for children, quality time. Well, we need nothing time as well, empty time, um, for our kids. So that's one reason, creativity or originality. Um, there's another reason, uh, which relates to what you said about, you know, Netflix and the, the paradox of choice. And that is how sensitive we are versus how desensitized we are to stimulation. You know, if I have 500 channels, if I have option of just about every movie that was ever created, literally at my fingertips, then, uh, I'm not going to appreciate, you know, a good movie as much. Or when I watch a movie, I'm going to think of all the counterfactuals, meaning of all the movies I'm not watching while I'm watching this, that could be better because I'm not having a perfect experience.

Speaker 1: I'm having a good expert, but it's not perfect. And it should be perfect because what excuse do I have for it not being perfect, having so much choice. And if I constantly have more stimulation, more stimulating, more stimulation, it becomes interesting. It becomes less exciting. You know, I think about, you know, kids raised in the, uh, you know, 19th century, you know, for them, the highlight of the day was sitting with their family, you know, around the table and maybe reading a book together, you know, today boring. Why? Because it doesn't, it's not in 3d. And, uh, you know, and it's not changing every seven seconds and it doesn't have sound effects. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I certainly relate to that in the situation, especially where you are craving so much stimulation that nothing can actually solve that craving for you. And you end up watching a few minutes and losing interest and then grabbing the iPad and going back to the device. And yet we're seeing more and more with social media that it, our attention span is shrinking. It's like, you got to hit them in 10 seconds. You got to hit them in five seconds. They're already gone in three seconds. Is that hurting our psyche mentally and impacting our happiness.

Speaker 1: It's hurting our psyche, it's hurting our happiness, it's hurting our relationships. You know, I want to go off a little bit on a tangent, which is, which is very much related to, to what you said. It's also connect to Johnny to, to your, um, focused on empathy. Um, one of the things that I talk about a lot for happiness is, uh, intellectual wellbeing. And specifically under intellectual wellbeing, I focus on deep learning, um, deep learning in the sense of, you know, getting into a book and reading and rereading a chapter or a paragraph. The first course that I took as an undergraduate in college was a course that was offered during freshmen week. So that's even before the official semester started, it was a course on speed reading. And, uh, it's a great, it was a great course, you know, increased my reading speed, but I think more and more today that, and even more important course would have been on slow reading.

Speaker 1: Why? Because, um, today, as you pointed out every five seconds, every three seconds, we need a new stimulation because that's what we're used to. You know, we hardly spend any time on a webpage. You know, when kids today watch my childhood movies or TV shows, it's too slow for them because there is only one screen because it's one shot for, uh, you know, two minutes, Mr. Rogers, it's hardly moving. You know, it's in slow mode. It reminds me of many of my students say, you know, when we watch you on video, we play you at 1.5, sometimes 1.75. You know, I try not to take that to heart. You know, we, we need constant stimulation now comes relationship and no one changes every three to five seconds. And, uh, you know, we get bored with partners and that's why there is so much relationship hopping around in the world today. Where why, because we do not, exercise are slow deep muscles and how do we exercise them? Of course, by within relationships, we also can exercise them through reading and rereading through slow, deep engagement with text and that habit, or that practice is then transportable transferrable to our relationships. Just like the unhealthy habits of jumping around every three to five seconds is then transportable and transferable to our relationships.

Speaker 3: Yeah. That brings up an interesting point about the comprehension or learning of certain things. One of the aspects of your book, the all the great little short stories about the you're a barber, and you've mentioned the beginning of the book. This book is not to be meant to read in one sitting, it's read one of the little stories and then digest, think about it for the rest of the day. And I love that. And as much as I love reading, I have to do a lot for work. I read everything that comes through and I enjoy reading. Sometimes I don't have the opportunity to read things in the way that I would like to. I'm choking them down. I have to get it, get my questions ready to get the interview set up. But with all this stimulation, the learning process for these young kids is rapidly changing.

Speaker 3: And I don't know how the brain is reacting to the way that they're learning now, where they're just digesting so much stimuli. The nothing is generally setting in and something else that Aja, I brought up about staring at a screen for 30, 40 minutes, trying to figure out what would be the best movie to watch here. When I was young, if I went to the fridge and just opened it and stared inside, and my dad, of course, like, what the hell are you doing? I'm like, Oh, I'm trying to figure out what I want to eat. It's like, that's not how we're going to do it. You think about what you're going to eat. And then you go into the fridge, you pour it out. You just don't stand in front of it. I think we have to adopt a bit of that same mindset.

Speaker 3: We've, weren't going to Netflix. It's like, you're going to think about what you want. You're going to look at a couple of choices and you're going to look and you're going to take it. If you don't like it, you should still, there's an appreciation that you should find in it and derive some sort of value out of it. So you're just not getting antsy and figuring I need to be stimulated in one way. And if I'm not stimulated in that one very way, I'm onto the next thing. It's changing, how we take in information so fast.

Speaker 1: Yeah. And you know, I think Johnny, what we need to do here, and this is also the advice of Barry Schwartz of the tyranny or the paradox of choice is that we need to, um, accept the good enough satisfies in, uh, in, in his words. And it has to do with, uh, expectations where have, have, has my understanding of happiness changed over the years. One of those places is around expectations. You know, I used to think that, uh, uh, having high expectations, uh, having greater expectations is great is the way to go. And today I still think that it's partially true, partially with a, with a significant caveat specifically when it comes to expectations in terms of success, or for me as a teacher of my students, or, or as a parent, I want to have high expectations, but when it comes to a happiness or joy or pleasure, instead of having high expectations, we need to have realistic expectations.

Speaker 1: Let me give just a couple of examples. So if I have a night off and a, and you know, and I come home and I'm in front of my Netflix, and I say, wow, it's a night off. I can watch anything that I want. It's going to be amazing and bound to be disappointed because I'm going to start watching something. And then it's not going to live up to my expectations of course, because they are extremely high. And then even if it's a great film or a greater series, it's not as great as the ideal that I depicted before starting it. It's never going to meet that ideal. So I'm going to be disappointed and not enjoy a potentially enjoyable movie. Whereas if my expectation is, as you, as you pointed out, you know, there's a lot that I can learn from this, or I can really enjoy this.

Speaker 1: It can be, it can be fun. And tomorrow is another day and I can watch something else. Then that's more realistic. Now that's about a movie. So, you know, the consequences thereof are not major, but think about other areas, think about relationships. If I go into a relationship with great or greatest expectations. And when I say I do, I truly believe that we're going to live happily ever after that, we're going to experience the same high end joy and passion and ecstasy that we're experiencing. Now during the honeymoon phase for the rest of our lives, I'm bound to be disappointed. These are unrealistic high, unrealistic expectations. We need realistic expectations such as in every relationship. There are ups and downs, even in the best of them, there are difficulties in hardships and it's natural. And we're going to go through these hardships and grow from them. And we're going to rejoice in the positive, uh, moments and experiences, having realistic expectations, whether it's of the food in the fridge, the, uh, the film or Netflix or our beloved.

Speaker 2: One of the things that I recognize in the participants in the happiness studies Academy is that they want to help others find happiness, but that is often so difficult. So you learn all this great science around happiness. You make changes in your life and you're feeling better, but your partner, your friend, your children are not happy. You know, what advice do you have for those of us who want to give the gift of happiness? When someone in our life is maybe not feeling unhappy, is there a strategy that actually works or are there some things we should avoid completely?

Speaker 1: Yeah. I, you know, let, let me start with the things that we should avoid completely. So if, if I'm feeling great and I'm happy, we shouldn't go up to them and say, look, you should do what I'm doing. Look how happy I am that probably not work. So to be sensitive to where they are rather to where we are now in terms of helping other people. So the most important thing that we can do is to be there for them, meaning to listen, you know, listening, it's an art and it's underrated. It's important. You know, it's many people wonder how is it the therapy helps and how has, and what do the great therapists do? Well, the great therapists are empathic. They listen, they're present once in a while. They can say something, but that's something also stems from, and if it is profound, it's because it stems from deep listening.

Speaker 1: So, you know, the marching order of, of, you know, parents therapists, for sure, but also parents and partners who want to help the other is less than first. And then to lead by example, you know, as we talked about parents earlier, you know, you don't want your kids to be on the phone all the time, lead by example, if you want them to pursue their passions, to do things that they're passionate about, well, do that yourself and share what you do. And other things that's important to share is also hardships and difficulties. Because, you know, if my expectation is that my life should be honored to be, can be always happy, I'll experience frustration. However, if I know that part and parcel of every life, including my parents' life or including my partner's life or my best friend's life, there's also a hardship there. Then I will be more likely to give myself the permission to experience that. So leading by example,

Speaker 2: I think that's so powerful in that when we're bringing ourselves up and having that happiness, that we are willing to share by listening to others and not talking about ourselves, but actually investing the time in that relationship and the patients and the empathy to realize that there are times, and as we've seen in this pandemic where you might be high, your spouse might be low. And sometimes the roles are reversed. Many of us want to take action, right? We're so focused on what can I do when in actuality it's more of the passive it's, how can I not focus on myself, be there fully to support my partner friend, my family member.

Speaker 1: Yeah. And what we are also doing there when we're there for them is we're allowing nature to take its course, you know, painful emotions that difficulties and hardships, they play a very important role in our life. When you look at our life as a whole, you know, that's how we grow stronger. That's how we learn. That's how we develop. You know, if you go to the gym and, um, you set all the weights, they're on zero and everything is very easy for you. In other words, there's no resistance. You're not going to get stronger. You're not going to grow. It's when you have resistance that you grow and that applies on the physical level, it also applies on the psychological level.

Speaker 2: Some of the advice you see online is to cut negative people out of your life and to only surround yourself with positive, happy people, but odds are not everyone around you is going to be happy. 24 seven. Is there a time or a place where removing that negative person from your life is the right path versus being there to support that person who might be going through a difficult moment?

Speaker 1: Look, I mean, the thing is that we do actually need a mix of people. If you were only around people who are positive and happy all the time, guaranteed you'd become depressed. Why? Because you'd feel left out. You'd feel inadequate. You'd feel like there was something wrong with you. We do also need, uh, some negativity around us as, you know, as difficult or as a counter-intuitive, as, as that may sound, you know, there is a terrible word in, in German shut-in Freud, you know, and shut-in Freud day is, you know, reveling in others' misfortune, but shut-in Freud, uh, uh, to my mind, tries to include too much in it because actually, uh, being weakness to other people's hardship does have an important value. And the value is simply the feeling that I'm not alone. It's not reveling in their misfortune. It's recognizing that I'm not the only one who's struggling, who is experiencing some misfortune and that's, and that's important. And it's important because it's true because everyone hurts. Sometimes that wasn't my quote by them.

Speaker 1: Everybody hurts sometimes. So the idea here is, um, to accept that there is some negativity. Now, if there are people who put us down constantly, if there are people who, um, in order to elevate themselves, need to trample on others and they're not pleasant to be with, and we can distance ourselves from them, then perhaps we should do so. Uh, but sometimes it's not realistic. And sometimes they have, uh, other characteristics that we do appreciate and desire. We have to make the decision for ourselves. Am I against distancing ourselves from some people? No. I think sometimes it's a necessary, important, and a good thing to do, but a very often it's not possible or overall desirable.

Speaker 3: You mentioned something that I love it. Not everybody is going to be an agreeable, positive, happy person. And you wouldn't want everyone being so agreeable and positive around you at all times. I think it would drive you a bit crazy, but the idea and where do people conflate the idea that being disagreeable means that you're an unhappy person. I know plenty of disagreeable people who are generally happy people, in fact, it's their disagreeableness that allows them to build up some walls so that they can to be happy. It's bizarre, but I see it linked all the time.

Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, um, the idea of, uh, disagreeableness or, you know, a person who doesn't agree with with us, uh, all the time is actually a very important part of friendship. And one of 'em to my mind, the most beautiful pieces ever written on friendship is, uh, by Ralph Waldo, Emerson and Ralph Waldo Emerson in the 1830s roped in his essay on friendship, the following, he said in a friend, I'm not looking for a mush of concessions, a person who will agree with everything that I say, rather, what I'm looking for is a beautiful enemy who will help me challenge me in my apprenticeship to the truth. Um, so sometimes those disagreeable ones are our beautiful enemies. And, uh, again, just like in the gym, we sometimes need that resistance, uh, to grow also with friendship. Disagreeableness may be maybe a virtue.

Speaker 3: Well, it's that different perspective that puts you in a position where you start to rethink yours, the, see if there's anything that is going on with somebody who's so steadfast in thinking in another way. It's fantastic.

Speaker 2: Well, I think Johnny and I can agree that I'm the enemy, but we maybe disagree about how beautiful I am. So we're working on that in our own friendship. You know, one of the things that we see online now and is trending that I'd love to get your perspective on is this idea of toxic positivity when there's too much positivity. And I know many people equate positive psychology with just the pursuit of positivity, 24 seven. We've sort of touched on this a little bit, but what are your thoughts around toxic positivity?

Speaker 1: You know, w when ever I talk about, uh, happiness or positive psychology, I always start by talking the roll off painful emotions and notice I don't call them negative emotions because with negativity, there's already a value judgment there. I always begin by talking about the roll off sadness or anger or anxiety or envy or hatred and how they're part and parcel of every life, including by default, have a happy life. And that's important to emphasize precisely because of what you pointed to ADJ and many positive psychologists are on this. You know, the Moto is, um, smile all the time, or, uh, don't worry, be happy or, um, eliminate negative emotions. And that's not possible nor is it desirable. You know, I often have a, uh, a thought experiment that I offer. And I also add that this may not just be a thought experiment that may become a reality 10 years from now.

Speaker 1: Imagine you had a machine that you could go into and that machine would automatically eliminate any painful emotions. You could go into it, your kids could go into it. So, you know, you're feeling down or your child comes home from school, feeling down, just going to that machine and you'll feel all better. Again, you know, a little bit like a Woody, Allen's their orgasmatron would you want that machine? And my answer would be that it would be nice to have once in a while, but if we had accessible all the time, if we could live according to that ideal and be positive and happy, according to that definition of happiness all the time, that wouldn't be a good thing because I'm think about it. And most people, if you ask them to reflect on the times in their lives, when they grew the most, when they learned the most that have been most meaningful to them, they would usually think about difficult experiences, not a happy go, lucky, joyful exp pollyannic experiences,

Speaker 2: Be happy all the time where to have this machine sounds like a black mirror or Twilight zone episode. And we all know how those go. Yeah. They tend not to end well, now I'm curious, are there any non-negotiables for you when it comes to happiness in your life? Just do not do this. If you are working towards happiness, I know many people have thought about what to do, but are there things that we're doing consciously or subconsciously that are robbing us of that happiness that you put on your non-negotiable list?

Speaker 1: Yeah, my non-negotiable personally, that is my non-negotiable is, um, important dates. For example, in terms of, uh, relationships, it mostly has to do when work detracts from relationships and relationships. I mean, whether it's with my wife, whether it's with my children, extended family, intimate friends, um, that comes first and everything else has to revolve around that. Now with that, you know, I work hard on ambitious. Uh, you know, I used to, uh, not so long ago, travel a lot and yet top priority in words and Indeed's relationships and, um, and things have to revolve around that.

Speaker 2: I think it's so important. It's why we do this show to help others have better relationships in their life by working on themselves, but also showing up in a more impactful way. Can you tell us a little bit about the certificate for happiness studies and what's going on inside the happiness studies Academy, Johnny and I have really enjoyed it and I love for audiences.

Speaker 1: Sure. So, um, I co-founded the happiness studies Academy, uh, in order to help students, our participants answer two questions. The first question is, how can I become happier? The second question is how can I help others do the same? So, uh, we have students going through our year long certificate program who are there because they were primarily, um, concerned about their own happiness. There are others are concerned about their own happiness and their family or their coachees. We have teachers, we have managers, we have therapists, doctors and all focused on, um, cultivating life's ultimate currency, happiness.

Speaker 2: It is the ultimate currency. We love that. And thank you so much for joining us. The last question we ask, all of our guests is what their X factor is. What does that mindset or skillset and combination that have made you successful in your life?

Speaker 1: Uh, hard work dedication. I know it's not a very creative or novel idea here, but, you know, as, uh, Jefferson reported the say the harder I work, the luckier I get, I'm a big believer in, uh, in hard work, old school.

Speaker 2: We are too. And oftentimes that's not what we're seeing in social media and how difficult life is. So it's great to hear from successful people, how much work they're putting in to be successful. Thank you again for joining a style is great.

Speaker 1: Thank you, JJ. Thank you, Johnny. Thank you for being so charming.

Speaker 2: We're a work in progress. Thank you. Now today's coaches corner comes from an X-Factor member and in our X-Factor accelerator, he was struggling with his brother. Now you could imagine that over time, this relationship and our behaviors, and the way that we show up in this relationship have been pretty set are pretty well worn are habitual, and he's really frustrated because he feels that his brother is bringing him down, but he doesn't know how to set that boundary. And specifically, he had spent some time recently with his brother and he just recognized after going through, X-Factor the impact that his brother's judgment criticism and sarcasm was having on his own level and state of mind. And he asked us, how can I draw a boundary with someone as important to me as my brother, my blood, who I love.

Speaker 4: So boundaries of course are insanely important here. And I'll let you guys talk about those in just a second. And I want to make a different point because I found myself in a similar situation with a very close family member. And that's why I can relate to this. And my solution to this was that I spent time with this particular family member only when this individual is at their best. So in my, in my example, it's like this individual is really into doing, um, do it yourself, work in, in the house, in the apartment, in the garden. So this is my opportunity. So whenever I do something in my apartment, even if I exactly know how to do it, I take a photo, I send it over. I say, Hey, can we Skype about this for a second? I need to change the faucet in the kitchen.

Speaker 4: And then this brings out the best in the other person. And we spent some time together and we're both at our best, but then if you know, if I'm watching the news and the politics come up, that would not be something where I get into touch with that. So that is, that is getting the best out of the other person. I've actually shared this with a client in car confidence. And she wrote me back the next week. And she said, you know, for the first time, in 10 years, I had a meaningful conversation with my dad. And so, so this is highlighting the positive in the relationship and building on that. But this needs to be fence with, with solid boundaries and being assertive and making it clear to the other person like this is a go, and this is a no-go. And for that, we need to establish those boundaries. And I know you guys talk about that in the X-Factor accelerator as well.

Speaker 3: I don't think that you can have proper relationships without boundaries. And if you do not have boundaries than the other, the person who hasn't sat them well get taken advantage of that's just nature. It's not because the other person is rude. It's not because the other person is adversarial. It's not because the other person is predatory though. There are those people, but usually it's just the nature of a relationship. You have somebody that you enjoy being around you. You will ask them for help for support. And if you do not set up boundaries, well, then I have no reason not to ask you for your help and your support. Every time that I need help and support, and it can get to a point there's several things going on. Number one, I'm not helping you by constantly coming to your aid. Every time that you ask for it, an agent knows this well, we'll get into, uh, having an open door policy and just the bit, so you don't want to be an enabler, you people to be resourceful.

Speaker 3: And if they always have you to call on whenever they need something, they will always do it because it's just easy that way. Oh, I'll just call AIG. Oh, Michael had the answer. So, and if Michael says, Oh, I got you do this, do this, do this next time a week later, I have another problem. I'm going to call Michael, I'm going to call Michael. I'm going to call Michael. And next thing you know, Michael's always helped me, but I never held him. Michael. And the other thing about it is the boundaries go both ways as well. There is. You're setting up how you want to be treated in that relationship so that the other person knows what I can ask for and what I'm not asking for, but also as well, we want people to be able to develop themselves through, through life, through their experiences and if, and they need to be able to interpret their experiences for themselves and learn how to do that in a positive manner, that gives them opportunities rather than hinders them in life. And what happens later on down the road, if I have a situation and I have not worked on myself or have built that system for myself, well, then I'm always going to be reaching out to other people. I've made myself dependent on others to interpret my experiences for me. That's and that's a skill that if, if it's been taken from you at an early age, it becomes more and more difficult as you get

Speaker 2: Odor. And there's a few critical components to drawing a boundary that we have to articulate. And of course, when it's family it's even more challenging, the first is we have to clearly and explicitly state what the behavior is that we find unacceptable. That's harming us, that is creating pain in our lives. So we need to say, Hey, I have to be honest with you. When you start casting really tease me and you reject all of my suggestions of what we can do for fun or what we should eat for dinner. I feel hurt. I feel rejected. It pains me. So we're articulating fully what that behavior is. And then we're telling them how it makes us feel. Those two things are critical to drawing a boundary because we, if we're not explicit with what the behavior is, then the other person doesn't really know. They have to read between the lines and try to understand what it is that's bothering us.

Speaker 2: You have to be explicit on the behavior with a crystal clear example. Then we're adding the component of what our emotion is and what our feelings are. Now, those feelings are your feelings that you can't argue with. Someone's you can't say, Oh, well, you don't feel that way. Those feelings are true to you. So it's important that you link the behavior to the feelings. Then the third critical component is state what you would prefer or expect. Instead, I would prefer that when I suggest something for us to do for fun, instead of cutting it down and being sarcastic, either you say, Hey, that doesn't sound fun and suggest something else turn towards my emotional bid, or you keep the sarcastic comment to yourself, right? So you're giving them another behavior to engage in. That's clear, that's explicit because what's going on here is you have expectations.

Speaker 2: They're not being met. And in turn, their behaviors are actually harming you emotionally. So if we're not clear on what those behaviors are, and we're not clear on what those expectations are and the point of contention being our feelings, which can't be argued with, we don't have a firm solid boundary to draw. Now, the fourth and final component is there has to be repercussions to this breaking of a boundary. And that sort of many of us fall flat. That's where many of us we can say, Hey, stop doing this. Hey, it makes me feel this way. And then it happens again. And we still give that person our time. We still give that person our attention. We slink away from the interaction, but there are no consequences to breaking that boundary. And in this example, you say, Hey, the next time this happens, I'm just not going to be available to spend time with you.

Speaker 4: And notice, notice what's what's happening here is that we've, we've heard it in the question already that there is resentment for the brother. There was resentment for, you know, the brother of that person. And if setting a boundary is difficult and pushes you outside of your comfort zone, if, if doing it for yourself, isn't enough do it for the relationship that you have with your brother, because, you know, establishing a boundary right now, even though it's going to be very uncomfortable and, and, and you'll struggle with it a little bit, and then, you know, pushing through as well. Um, if you don't do it, maybe 30 years in the future, like you and your brother, you're no longer talking, you are out of each other's lives. So this is a bit like ripping off the band-aid. Um, right now, before things just get worse. Okay. That metaphor didn't make sense because things don't get worse when you don't rip off the bandaid, but you, you know, you know what I mean? I'm mixing two metaphors here.

Speaker 2: I also want to point out there's the point that makes us difficult is you're afraid of the response that is going to happen when you give your brother this new boundary. Well, of course, he's going to be surprised. Of course, he's going to be shocked. And he's probably also going be defensive

Speaker 3: About it and argue with you about it, because this is, if you haven't set boundaries in the past, well, there's never been any expectations or boundaries set. And now all of a sudden you're telling somebody, well, how they have been treating you is wrong and how it makes you feel they're going to want to rationalize their behaviors and what they're doing. And you're going to have to expect that there's going to be that response and gives space to allow the person that you're setting that boundary with, to go through their own emotions, because they're going to have to revisit everything that you just said. They have to deal with the fact that how they've been behaving has hurt you. They certainly don't want that to, they now have to change their behavior. And you've told them the behavior that you would like to see from them. That's not going to sit pretty at first. However, once they think about it, they understand how it made you feel and what you had, uh, behaviors that you had pointed out and how you like to be treated. It will be easy for them to accept it and move forward from there. But you're going to have to expect some repercussions for speaking out, but that comes with the territory

Speaker 2: And understand that this boundary will have to be reset a few times. That exact statement that I said is going to have to be restated a few times, because as Johnny said, behavior, change in someone else is difficult. These are habits and patterns. And the way you relate to one another that have been built up, especially with a brother. So patience is in order, but from newness on the consequence of this behavior, and you will start to see a change and a respect that's earned through this boundary. Now, if this is something that your struggling with boundaries, relationships in your life, check out our X factor accelerator and get a year's worth of support for me, Johnny Michael, and the entire art of charm team, much like our X-Factor participant who shared this great question with us. [inaudible] I have to say, Johnny, the science of happiness always fires me up and it starts me looking introspectively on what are the things that I can change those tiny actions I can take in my life to bring more happiness and joy.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I certainly enjoyed the interview and his book is wonderful. And it's filled with great little stories that have you pondering the rest of the day, just thinking about it and how these little lessons impact our lives.

Speaker 2: Do you want to unlock happiness in your life and share that gift with others? Johnny and I joined the happiness studies Academy to learn directly from tall and to receive a certificate in happiness studies. The certificate in happiness studies as an online academic course created and delivered by Dr. Tal Ben Shahar that provides the knowledge and the tools to generate happiness on the individual interpersonal organizational and national levels. In addition to English, it's offered in Chinese, Japanese, Spanish, and Portuguese.

Speaker 3: We love the weekly coaching sessions with towel and have learned so much around the science of happiness. You can join us inside@theartofcharm.com slash

Speaker 2: That's, right, become certified with us by heading to the art of charm.com/happiness.

Speaker 3: AGA we have a couple of shout outs this week, and I want to first start with one that was a review on iTunes. It was a review from Vox MPG 41. ASC has brought incredible value to my life, both personally and professionally. I find myself saying to myself, wow, I had never thought about it like that. After every episode, what I enjoy most is the practical ways that Johnny and Aja approach various relationship building topics and how they provide you with ways to implement these tools immediately is C has truly made me a better husband, friend and colleague. Wow. Well, thank you. Vox MPG, 41. I love hearing those things and yes, we want you to practice all of these things. This next shout, I was from Twitter and it was from Michael Cortez who sent me a message on Twitter yesterday telling me how much he loved the emotional bids episode. So if you enjoyed this episode, take a screenshot, tag us on social. We love celebrating our incredible audience of top performers. That means you

Speaker 2: That's right. And if you haven't heard the emotional bids episode, what are you waiting for? It's an action packed toolbox episode that everyone has given us Raven reviews about. Also, could you head on over to any of your favorite podcast players and rate this show? It means the world to us, and it brings great guests on like Dr. Tal Ben Shahar. The art of charm podcast is produced by Michael Harold and Eric Montgomery until next week. I'm a J and I'm Johnny have a good one.

Speaker 5: [inaudible] [inaudible].