Speaker 1: Well, I'll go back to the art of charm podcast, a show designed to help you communicate with power and become unstoppable on your path from hidden genius to influential leader.

Speaker 2: No, you have what it takes to reach our full potential. And each and every week we share with you interviews and strategies to help you transform your life by helping you unlock your X factor, whether you're in sales, leadership, medicine, building client relationships, or looking for love, we got what you need. You shouldn't have to settle for anything less than extraordinary.

Speaker 1: I'm a J and I'm Johnny. Thank you everyone for tuning in let's kick off today's show today, we have Brett Hagler with us. Brett is the CEO and co-founder of new story, a nonprofit that's pioneering solutions to end global homelessness. This NGO was named among fast company's most innovative companies in the world several times, and they've impacted over 11,000 lives since 2015. And their goal is to house 1 million people by 2030, Brett is our definition of an influential leader, and we can't wait to chat. Welcome to the show, Brett,

Speaker 3: I'm glad to be honest, you guys, so thanks for having me

Speaker 1: Awesome. So for our audience members that are not familiar with the news story, can you give a high level overview of what you are doing?

Speaker 3: Our mission is to pioneer solutions to end global homelessness. And so we work with families that, um, are living without adequate shelter. Um, unfortunately in the year 2021, there's about 1.6 billion people, um, that live in that, uh, environment. And what we do is we try to bring, um, kind of more, uh, forward thinking, modern, innovative solutions to, uh, to help more families to have multi-generational housing. So that's, that's what we do from a high level. Everything from, uh, kind of rethinking finance with FinTech, um, to, uh, 3d printing houses, uh, is a wide range of what we work on.

Speaker 1: And how did that become your mission?

Speaker 3: Well, I didn't grow up thinking I would do this kind of work. Um, quite the opposite actually. Uh, I was, I was always entrepreneurial. Um, I think I was always, uh, quite ambitious once I got to college, uh, I wanted to be a tech entrepreneur, um, and, uh, didn't think I'd be working with the kind of demographic or market that we work with now. Um, but what happened was I had a, a for-profit startup or at a college and, um, you know, I didn't really know what I was doing yet, but I got started. And, uh, and during that first startup, we started giving back a little bit of the money we were making to a charity and that charity was based in Haiti. And so I went down to visit that charity in person. Um, and on that trip, uh, which was a couple years after a massive earthquake that happened in 2010.

Speaker 3: Um, I got exposed to the problem of, you know, kids and families, um, growing up without life's most basic human needs, safety and shelter. So, um, that's how I found out about the problem. Um, I actually didn't think about starting my own organization because I was 24 years old. I had no experience in this space. I literally had no money. I didn't even know wealthy people. Like, I don't know. I just tried to go find organizations that I could get really excited about and I could champion. Um, and from my perspective, uh, I, my mindset was I, I loved, um, startups. I love the new companies that were coming out, you know, the Airbnbs and these new exciting companies. And, uh, and now as where my mind was. And then I looked at a lot of the traditional charities and it just felt very different, like almost like two different worlds for, um, how a lot of traditional charities operated. And I became very frustrated with, uh, just a lack of transparency. It felt very outdated. It felt like we were not, they were not thinking about using technology and innovation. And so that actually became the reason why I thought it made sense to, uh, to start, um, to start an organization and not just join one because of those frustrations that I had and trying to find a one to support. So that's how we got started.

Speaker 2: I want to, I want to ask, I mean, that's such a large task goal mission. It's, it's, it's huge and for a lot of young people and I, or last 15 years and helping young folks, one of the things that we see is that they have trouble engaging. They have trouble finding a starting point to just say, this is it. This is, this is where I'm going to, to, to enter in and start. And for yourself, is there anything that you can point to or mindset wise or that, that is just unique for your situation where you decided this is it, this is where I'm going, I'm entering in.

Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a great question, Johnny. Um, so I would answer it in two ways. Um, the first is that I think I figured out, um, basically in college, um, that I could control a lot of what I was learning. And so I would, uh, just, I started consuming, you know, almost a book a week. Most of it was about entrepreneurship or business or biographies. And then I learned about podcasts. And so, uh, I learned about these YouTube videos where you'd have founders talking about literally how they built companies from zero, where they were to their first thousand customers. And I'm like, oh my gosh, this is off is all basically free or the best ROI I could ever spend. And so I was spending a lot of time, like learning and soaking in information. And I think that was a good starting. Um, and I, the good news is that anybody listening, like, and if you're listening to this podcast, like you, you probably have a similar mindset.

Speaker 3: I really think that helped, um, me to start connecting dots and like having some, some confidence. So that was a starting point. And the second thing is I say this all the time is to dream big, but to start small, right? So here I am now, I just turned 32. I'm literally thinking I just came out of a meeting thinking about like, literally, how are we going to, um, house a million people with, by a date that's not that far away. Right. But when starting the organization, which is right after my 25th birthday, I was not thinking that I was literally thinking, how do we do this? And I'm not exaggerating for one family. Right. And it sounds very cliche, but it's, it's this idea of you can have a big dream, but, uh, you should start small. And if you're listening and you get, uh, paralyzed by, you know, one day wanting to make a big impact or want to grow a company, it's like, where do you get started?

Speaker 3: You know, if I was 25 and had no money, no resources, no, no, no experience. And the kind of work that I do. And I'm trying to put a plan together of how to house help house a million people. Like that's very paralyzing, right. And I can't really control that, but what I could control is how do I, uh, make a, a prose, a list of all of the cons that I feel that certain charities have, have caused me to feel all these frustrations, and then in a dream world, what would that look? What would that experience look like? If I could change it and I could make it better. And I just want to test that on literally one house to start, and that was it. And that's how you got started. And, um, and you know, he came at it from a different perspective and, uh, and you get your first house funded, you get a little bit more momentum. Um, you know, we got about 10 homes and then that's when we applied to a startup program called Y Combinator. Um, and then, you know, after that, it was, uh, that that really helped our growth, but that's how we got started.

Speaker 2: Well, it's certainly in there that you were very eager to get started at some point of seeing that the world was there, it was ready for you. And you're like, I'm going in and it's it's and I'm going to start small and get this moving and age. And I have an inside joke because we have had so many people who have wrote us who wanted to work for us, who wanted to do some work. And they're there. They're always excited to let us know that they've read all the books and we have that, that, that Joe running. And of course you had noticed all the content that was online, you were absorbing it at some point, you have to go, I'm willing to now put the rubber to the road. Right. There's there's no more, I, there's not, there's no more wisdom to be gained from another startup story. It's the only wisdom to be gained now is my own startup story and then plugging in.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. And then learn by doing right. And then you could actually have peers that you could talk to right now. I could talk to other founders. I could talk to other executives. Of course I can learn from that. Right. Or if I'm listening to a podcast, you know, of course I can learn from them, but I'm thinking through, well, they're talking about customer acquisition. Or then I'm like, well, that's what we're going through. Right. Because we're actually doing it. And, you know, even before starting new story, which I, I started at a relatively young age, 25, I started a for-profit startup right before this, and that ended up failing. Right. But that ended up, it forced me to, and not everybody listening, you don't have to start your own startup right. Out of college. Right. I think that's for its own place. But what that did was it, it forced me to figure out how do I prepare for big meetings that I actually would never be in unless I started this, right. How do I put together a marketing plan that I would never be in if I didn't start this? Like, how would I sit across the table from this investor, this CEO that I never would have been, you know, whatever we're done. And that helped build. Obviously I was very nervous and scared and imposter syndrome at the beginning and still even now, but like, man, that's how you build confidence, right? Because you, you go out there, you be vulnerable and that's how you start building confidence.

Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about coming out of that failure because many would see that failure as, oh, I'm just not capable. Why would I take on an even bigger mission and an even more audacious plan if I'm coming off of a failure. So what was the turning point for you and how are you able to dust yourself off and say, you know what, I'm going even bigger this next time.

Speaker 3: Yeah. I think when I S when we start a new story, the initial vision was, I mean, I obviously wanted to, one day in my life make a, make a big impact. You know, I didn't have an actual number or a clear vision. I think, um, just getting started. I, I wanted to, I wanted to solve a problem in a different way from an entrepreneurial, with an entrepreneurial lens. And, and I think with the first startup, I try to force it a little too much. Like I just, I just really wanted to do it. I really wanted to be an entrepreneur. I wanted it to like, and I forced the idea that in hindsight, um, now there was a ton of learnings that came from it. I wouldn't regret doing it cause it led to basically starting new story. Um, but was starting new story.

Speaker 3: I, I really saw like serious problems that, that are, uh, and experiences that I felt should be better. Right. And there's a, um, there's a phrase from a program called white commentary. We went through, which was, uh, really my business plan and the beginning, it was four words. It was make something people want. And I just viewed myself as the demographic, right. As, as a, as a donor, not as a homeowner, but like as a donor, um, what would I want, you know, as a mid third, as a mid 20 something that likes technology that liked innovation, um, we're a little skeptical about, uh, traditional charities. Like what would I want? And then, you know, try your best with the limited budget to create a version of that. And that's how, that's how we got started.

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Speaker 1: Implementing these concepts from this show has influenced your life. Imagine what a year long mentorship in the X factor accelerator could do for you on lock your X-Factor and become extraordinary apply today at unlock your X-Factor dot com. That's right. Unlock your X-Factor dot com. Well, we're big on taking failure and gaining experience from it on the show, but also from that failure, you made some really key relationships that I think are often overlooked with putting effort and energy. And even if it doesn't succeed, yes, it's great to have lessons. It's great to have that experience being in the room, but those relationships really paid off for you not only getting into Y Combinator, but getting experience with other people, doing innovative things with NGOs. Can you talk a little bit about those relationships you built with your first business and how that really helped propel you?

Speaker 3: Yeah, so my, I mean, some of our venture capital investors for the first business ended up, uh, being the, the, the larger news story supporters in the beginning, you know, cause they got to know me. Um, we actually ended up, uh, actually giving back almost all the money that we raised. So that was a little different. Um, we didn't burn it all. Um, but still it was on paper. It definitely wasn't a success. Uh, so that was, that was key. Just like starting to build those relationships. Um, it gave me more confidence as somebody that was in my early twenties of how do you actually go in a room and talk to an investor and talk to an, a venture capitalist and talk about the future and try to convince them to give you money to do it. Like that's, that's not easy. Um, but I was able to do that really young and that of course built, built confidence in me where now I actually think that's where I feel most confident.

Speaker 3: And that's where I feel I'm at my sweet spot is being, being in those kinds of rooms. Um, you know, the next thing it did was it, yeah. It introduced me to, um, uh, another organization that has really inspired new story, um, called charity water. I'm not sure if you guys know, know charity water, but, um, that was the other charity that we actually partnered with for our, for the first startup. Um, so there was two charities. One was in New York, which was charity water and what was in Haiti. And, uh, and I got exposed to, um, to meeting their founders, Scott Harrison, who's now a mentor and advisor, his wife Vick, um, who was also a co-founder of charity water is on new stories, formal board of directors. Um, and that's, you know, I would have, I, I was so inspired by them and so inspired by their model that, that of course like really influenced, um, uh, new story's DNA at the beginning as well.

Speaker 3: So those are just a couple of examples and you know, I, and then when I, when I decided to take another risk and starting a new story, a lot of the way that I, I guess one of the reasons somebody asks, well, one just failed. Why would you start this next thing? And I think what I experienced was, and what I felt was that when you're doing something that is actually a different or a kind of against the status quo, um, that attracts a certain kind of person that you can build relationships with. Right? If, um, and, uh, sometimes this comes off the wrong way, right? If I was because there are some people that will do a job, whether it's being, um, you know, a lawyer or something else where like, they love it, they're passionate about it. They want to be the frickin Bessler of the world.

Speaker 3: It's like, that's amazing. Right? And like, that's awesome. And they should a hundred percent be doing that, but then there's other people that just take a normal job because they think it's gonna, you know, look good on LinkedIn and pay a decent salary. And it's like, oh, that's, that's, doesn't, that's very ordinary, right. It's very ordinary to choose that path. Um, and you kind of blend in with everybody else. And then it's like, well, why would people doing or trying extraordinary things really want to build relationships when you've basically chosen to take a much safer, more, uh, ordinary path, um, unless you really want to be doing that, right. That's different. Like again, if you really want, if you want to be an amazing consultant or an amazing accountant, like you should, and you should do that if you really, if you really are passionate about it, but I think way too many people, especially in their twenties and even their thirties are just doing normal jobs and that pay well, and they're not very passionate about it. And you don't get to meet that many interesting people when you're doing that from my perspective. So I don't know, I got exposed to, um, at a young age, like by doing something different, seeing how many doors that opened up and that became very interesting. So yeah,

Speaker 2: There's some I want to drill in it to here. This is something that I've been discussing a lot on the show and in our live streams on Facebook, which is having multiple missions. I mean, it could, because it let's just say that you do have a straight job and you dig it and you're happy with that. That's fantastic. Fantastic. Perhaps to have some reach in a hobby, right. And, or, or an, an extra curricular mission. This is my hobby measure, my creative mission or the charitable or professional mission that I'm going on outside of my straight job, uh, does see if I can make this work when you have that reach and you don't know how to do things, you are left with finding out you're left with asking other people, those connections will start building. And this is where the doors you didn't even know existed, started to appear.

Speaker 2: And there's many different missions. You could even have a romantic mission in your life. It's like of, of finding the wife in that, and that showed it and creating the, that family. And what does that look like? And if you put that on paper beforehand, now you have something to strive for. I myself have multiple missions in my life, the art of charm being the main driver though, the one that I've built a career around, but I also have, I'm also a creative, I play in bands and I have a creative missions as well. I've just moved to a new town here in, well, new city here in Vegas from Los Angeles and having that mission as allowed me to, to quickly start building a social circle here in a new city, because I've been loud about it and, and not as shy about it. But speaking to people about this is what I'm doing here. And doors amazingly, he started opening up and the people that haven't been meeting in Vegas has, is it's been because of being, uh, unabashed about what that mission is and making it happen.

Speaker 3: I love that, man. They don't add to that, which is pretty much what you're saying is, um, when you have that mission or you're, you're passionate about something like be shameless and, uh, asking for help or asking for mentorship or advice, or like, like bringing people into it, you know? And, uh, I think sometimes that, especially younger folks can be, can be way too hesitant to ask people for help or to try to build relationships with somebody that they could genuinely, you know, learn from. And, and I know that's a hard skill. Some people it's not, they're not wired to, to, to, to try to go out and build relationships, but who, and that, there's not many things that will, that will bring a greater return for your mission then, uh, proactively build building relationships. And I think being, um, there was a quote when we were at Y Combinator from, uh, the, uh, the founder of Airbnb.

Speaker 3: And, um, they were saying, he was saying how he is, uh, especially as a young entrepreneur, he said, I am shameless and asking for help. He's like so many people think, you know, you have to show, you could figure it out and you want to be very calculated when you ask for help. He's like, I literally would ask like the best investors, the best CEOs, the best founders for help. Of course, they're not gonna all gonna say yes, but he's like, I'm asking. And I think way too many people are, are slow or hesitant to, to ask for help.

Speaker 1: And all it takes is one, yes, it takes one person volunteering to put the wind behind your sails. When many people think of NGOs, they think of bill gates. They think of bill Clinton. They think of people who are very successful, have used tech in ways to build wealth. And now they're using NGOs to innovate and give back. You're starting at such a young age with an NGO and, and many people don't think of innovation in that space. Did the innovation come for you before Y Combinator after, during, how did you really infuse? Because when we think about how houses are built right now, we're not building houses for people with 3d printers, and you're looking to do it for the least fortunate, the ones who can't even afford housing.

Speaker 3: Yeah. It's uh, it's uh, I appreciate that it's, um, it really was in our DNA. Like the reason why your organization is called news story, um, is twofold. The first one, which is most important is being able to partner with families and really create a new story and their life trajectory and help them actualize their potential, which is beautiful and awesome. But then the question is, how do you do that? And so the second reason why it's called news story is we really wanted to create a new story and how we think about charity and social impact and how do we make it more modern? How do we, how do we bring a very, uh, outdated, um, sector and industry that attracts a certain kind of talent to enter industry, as opposed to other, that really good talent could go. And that was the heart and the DNA of a new story from the beginning.

Speaker 3: Um, and it still continues to be, to be my heart. And, uh, you know, every year there are things that are, that are changing that show up in different ways as what, what is actually innovation, right? And, um, and that's going to continue to evolve over the years, but the, the DNA is we want to make, we want to create better solutions, right. And people can, can, uh, there's different ways to define innovation. I like to say, it's just, it's just recognizing what should be. It could be better and then creating a better solution. Um, and that doesn't always have to mean, uh, really exciting, shiny, cool technology, like 3d printing houses, even though we love that. And we love our partner icon, but like also just be, how do you, how do you rethink financing or how do you rethink some of the architectural design and ultimately create a better solution? And I think as entrepreneurs, or as creative people, um, like man, there's there's, to me, there's nothing more exhilarating and exciting than that.

Speaker 2: I think the 3d printing bit needs to be, at least give our, our, our viewers or listeners an overview of, of this technology and how it's working and how you guys are using it because not everybody is up on 3d printing.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, I think everybody is familiar with the, you know, 3d printing. Um, you've probably seen a 3d printer, uh, maybe not one that prints houses, but, you know, we have them now in our elementary schools or hospitals colleges, like probably in your home. So, uh, I think people know what 3d printing is. Um, 3d printing houses, uh, is newer. And, um, you know, we, uh, just, um, completed the first community of 3d printed houses and Mexico, um, with, uh, with our partner icon. Who's a construction technology startup out of Austin, Texas. And, uh, and what we're doing with 3d printing houses, it's a, it's a very large machine. Um, they range in size, but, uh, the one where you were using it was almost 30 feet wide. And the height of it will be, uh, you know, higher than a, a one-story home. And, uh, the material we're using is a proprietary, um, cement mix.

Speaker 3: And so, uh, we have a nozzle and that nozzle is a layering, a CAD file of the interior and the exterior walls. So the layers of the house are about, um, an inch and a half thick. And we start at the very bottom and we layer the interior and the exterior walls of the house. And that layer goes all the way up to the top and you put a roof on it. And how I like to describe it, uh, is the consistency is coming out of the nozzle, almost like soft serve ice cream is kind of what it looks like. And that's, uh, that's submit that is built to last is earthquake resilient. Um, and it's, it's layering, it's littering the house. And so it's a, it's a hardware, um, solution it's software solution, it's Euro science solution to ultimately, um, create a house that is a higher quality that is built faster and is at a lower price point. So I would just encourage you to maybe Google or go on YouTube and type in, um, 3d printed house, a new story and icon, and you'll see it.

Speaker 1: And you brought up Y Combinator a little bit, but I want to go into that story because many people, when they think of Y Combinator, they've heard of all of the unicorns that it's built in the for-profit space. How did you go into that application process knowing how difficult it is as someone who is starting a nonprofit business?

Speaker 3: Yeah. We were one of the first non-profits to go through the program and, uh, you know, the, I tell people the best part was that folks will ask, like, what was it like going through as a nonprofit? And I say the best part was, um, we didn't get treated 1% different than anybody else. Right. And that's how I've always envisioned it to be right. I've always envisioned, um, we are going after a massive, large underserved market, um, of literally over a billion people and that she required the exact same, if not even a higher standard of innovation and product development and quality and all the things. So that was some of the best parts about it. And, um, you know, how we got in, uh, I mean, one was definitely having an idea that was, uh, you know, framed as, and from the heart was definitely, um, challenging and outdated or traditional model.

Speaker 3: Um, and so that was kind of the first part. The second part was, it was just an idea. We actually had a good amount of traction, um, you know, in a short period of time. And that's, that's one of the things that white comedy or values most, um, not just in early stage startups that get in, but the ones that end up scaling after and get, you know, a subsequent, uh, venture capital investment is okay, you guys say, there's an opportunity here. You've researched it. You've identified it. Like, what have you actually done? You know, and the execution of it is what's impressive. And what's even probably more impressive is how fast can you execute? Right. And so we were able to get off to a pretty good start because we didn't let things like, oh, well, I don't have a bunch of software engineers to build a crowdfunding platform.

Speaker 3: I ha like, I just, we figured out how to basically hack it together. Right. And we made, um, we made a, uh, there's a, there's a company called web flow, which is like a no code solution helps designers basically design sites without, without needing to code. And when we started, we didn't have an engineer on our team and we wanted to create a, uh, a crowdfunding platform, like experience. And we don't want to use other ones out there because we were under the control of the whole end to end experience how it looked and everything. And so instead of trying to like, literally build our own crowdfunding platform from scratch, which takes time is expensive. Uh, what we did is we went on this website called web flow, um, which back then, and as basically, um, you get to go in and almost like designed really pretty like slides or like PowerPoint pages.

Speaker 3: And then you can use buttons and you can click on them and that's kind of user experience. And so we made all these different pages for our website, um, had no code behind it. It was not connected. And there's the crowdfunding pages where you could see a family's picture. Um, and then a house then costs about $7,000. And so we had people that would crowdfund the house and there was a meter and you could see how much money was donated, uh, was donated. Right. And so somebody would click a button, they click donate, they would give, and you would think, oh, cool. Like everything just automatically updates. Like this is a system that has code built into it. No, what we would do is we would get out our computers and we would manually, uh, move the meter a little bit, change, change the number, change the percentage manually and hit refresh.

Speaker 3: And the page would refresh with a new, a new interface. Um, and so, and we did that for like our, like our, almost our, our first 500 houses, you know, me and my co-founders. We just carried our computers with us everywhere. And sometimes somebody would donate and they would go back and look, and it did not update yet. And they would email or they would call and they would say, Hey, did this go through, I didn't see it like update. And we would say that, you know, credit card processing sometimes takes, you know, a few hours and, uh, it'll be updated soon. And we had to go in and like manually do it. Um, so that's just a story of like, we just got started. And we, then we did all of that probably on a less than $5,000 budget. And what we did is we proved a better, more transparent experience that people really liked giving to.

Speaker 3: And that's actually what we went to white Combinator with. And Y Combinator didn't even know that there wasn't code behind it. So, um, then of course we get funding, we build on our own, we then brought on software engineers, a CTO, but that's how we got started. Um, and then the last thing I'll say about Y Combinator, it was, we knew that our odds of getting in, um, was like literally less than 1%. There was about 10,000 startups that applied. They ended up taking, uh, I think 92 were in our batch. Right. And, um, and we there's, uh, there's, there's phases in the interview process. And, uh, you know, we, when we first applied, I mean, we spent so much time on the application. Like we really put a lot of effort in, but in the story that I tell and it's kind of a mantra for our team is, um, we got invited to the final round of interviews and they only take about 30% of those startups.

Speaker 3: And they used to fly everybody from all around the world into mountain view, um, for a 10 minute interview, right. They literally like notorious for this. Like they would fly people in from Brazil, Europe, like New York to California for a 10 minute interviews, literally only 10 minutes. And, um, and we knew that our odds were like still very low and we were, we were very much underdogs like our team, uh, or basically we had no big wins under our belt. And we were going up against people that were leaving Google and NASA and had the fanciest, you know, MBAs and all this, that was not us. Right. And so we knew we were underdogs, but we knew we had, uh, a game-changing opportunity. And so, um, the mantra is we prepared well over a hundred hours, probably close to 200 hours for a 10 minute interview. Right. And it's just like, like, that's the stuff like, that's the effort that, um, gave us the confidence and ended up getting us in. Right. And, um, and obviously you can't for every opportunity, you have to know when to go that all in for it. But man, when you get an opportunity that can really change things like that's, that's the effort that at least from my standpoint, that I think it's required to, to get some of these breakthroughs,

Speaker 1: Well, I know many have heard mantras around, you know, build things that scale and automate everything and, and figure out the quickest way from point a to B. And it sounds like there's just a lot of blood, sweat and tears along the way before you even get your foot in that door that I just don't hear many people sharing or glorifying. And it does lead people astray when they have their first failure, it doesn't happen as fast as they want and then they give up. So it's, it's so great to hear that story that you're sitting there manually updating page by page, just so that the investor, the donation can register. So that end user can feel the connection to the family, share it with their friends, see the impact they're having and really grow in an unscalable way. You can't carry your laptop for 10,000 families and update it by hand,

Speaker 3: But you can prove it. And then I'll say, I'll tell one more. This is a really quick story. One more of those examples. Well, we were actually going through Y Combinator. It was just me and my two co-founders, um, Matthew Marshall and Alexandria, uh, lossy. And, uh, and once we got out there, we moved to San Francisco and I mean, we, I've never worked so hard in my life for those three months. And, uh, and we were fortunately now getting new customers or new donors every day. Right. And there was a, uh, um, kind of a philosophy that the founder of, um, of white commoner talked about called his name is Paul Graham. And he said, it's better to have a thousand people. Absolutely love you than a million people kind of like you right. As customers. Right. And it's, you know, somewhat of like a thousand raving fans, concepts like similarly.

Speaker 3: And so, and he was talking about how, when you're, when you're just starting off, one of your main advantages is you could do all these things that don't scale to create like real customer love, right. Or real donor love. And so what we would do is at the end of every day, it used to be at like nine o'clock, um, would usually have a glass of wine at this point, like in our little office, we would, um, get out our, our computer and the three of us would stand shoulder to shoulder and we would film thank you videos for every donor that day, you know? And it ended up being like probably, you know, 10 or 20 a day. And they were short, you know, less than a minute, but man, we did all those videos for at least our first thousand donors and imagine their experience, right. I just gave, I get a personal video from the founders and that's how we got a lot of our first like raving fans. And it's just, it's not rocket science. They don't teach you that at, you know, at Harvard business school, it's just putting, it's being creative, it's being thoughtful and it's being, and it's caring and it's actually just putting in the work.

Speaker 2: So it's caring, but it's also being in love with the mission. You have to be willing to fight for it, to go through all of this. When you know that the odds are stacked against you, when you know that there's better competition, when you, when you know that the, the odds are against you. And it's like, well, I'm still going. I'm still preparing. I still, I'm still putting in a hundred hours for this 10 minutes because I love this mission so much. You will be willing to sit there and make the thank you videos and all of that. And yeah, I, I love that. I mean, and for us in the, in the work and the fighting that we have done over the last 15 years, I can relate to that so much. And, and it's, uh, that's a big ingredient. That's not only loving it, but putting so much meaning behind that. Why, and with viewers story and you, our mission, I mean, there is so many different moments of certain people's faces smiling, and being able to have, uh, to, to create a family around that and to, to lift up their experiences and enhancing their life. I mean, these are all great points. You can hang your hat on any one of those.

Speaker 1: Now, joining Y Combinator, there had to be a sense of self doubt entering that room. I mean, if the application process is so difficult, they take so few, then you're in, and you're looking around at all these other incredible ideas and incredible founders who are talented and have maybe even some wins under the belt where you may not have paint us a picture of how you dealt with that self doubt and maybe even imposter syndrome of being in such an amazing experience.

Speaker 3: That's by far, that was the most, um, imposture, like if you were to level in POS, uh, if you were to measure the level of imposter syndrome, that would be at an all time high for me, for sure. Um, I think that, you know, my, my response to that and my team's response to that was we just really did feel like underdogs. Um, and we felt like we had to put in even more effort, be even more focused and, um, and really make the most of the opportunity. And so I think we just, we did things that, um, you know, as far as like going above and beyond on building relationships, you know, at YC or outside of YC and, and kind of just making the most of every opportunity, um, and having that underdog mentality. Um, but then what really happened was we started to get a lot of traction and like things really started to work.

Speaker 3: Um, honestly, even more so than the majority of our batchmates. Um, cause every, every Tuesday you kind of come together with, uh, they break you up into groups and, and, uh, we had a group of probably about 10 or 12 other start-ups and, uh, and they're just, th the partners are there and they're just kind of grilling you on your weekly metrics. And like, we were in, like, we were hitting ours and we were kind of in that top percentile. And so going from holy smokes, we're not supposed to be here. Um, they made a mistake like, oh my gosh, what did we get into to feeling like an underdog putting in the effort and then starting to see real traction, even more so than the other people that you didn't feel like you were qualified to be with. That builds a lot of confidence, you know?

Speaker 3: And I think it gave us this boost, um, that no, we actually do deserve to be here. And like, you know, entrepreneurship, isn't just about, you know, your IQ or your resume. A lot of it is about your, your grit, your heart. Um, obviously you have to be smart and how you're problem solving, but also just like boldness and courage and being willing to do things that others aren't willing to do. And I thought we can do that. And that was how, and so that was how, you know, I think some of our disadvantages actually became our advantages while we were there.

Speaker 1: Absolutely. And I know that a big part of Y Combinator is getting you access to all of these incredible mentors and alumni of the program. What is some of the best advice that you received that maybe it's counterintuitive, or was really shocking and fascinating for you to learn and then implement in your business?

Speaker 3: Yeah, one of the ones we've already talked about, so I won't go into detail, but it's very counterintuitive. Um, it's, uh, in the beginning, whether it's with starting a company or starting something inside of your own organization, you know, it could be a new initiative. Um, that thinking is the counterintuitive thinking is to do things that don't scale, right? Because you can get so programmed into designing something from scratch that has to perfectly scale, has to be perfectly automated, um, where if you could just get on something so that you can learn and you can like make improvements and iterations and like start pushing up that, that Boulder up the hill. Um, that's one of them and anybody has the power to do that listening. So that was one. Um, the other one was, uh, um, Brian Chesky, who was the founder of Airbnb came and spoke to us one night and this was like almost six years ago.

Speaker 3: And I still remember it so vividly. And, you know, he was just talking about how, um, all the, the majority of you will undervalue, um, and not invest into culture. Um, you'll know, it's like kind of important, you know, you can't forget about it like United to do something about it, but he's like the ones that actually believe me and like make their tea, their culture, um, like the priority, you're going to be the one that builds like an extraordinary brand that recruits the best people. And, and, and I believed him, I took him at his word and we've invested so much from the very beginning into, into our culture and into our team. Um, so that would be probably, probably the other one. Yeah.

Speaker 2: I think that's very important because that puts other people in alignment to want to fight for your mission. You are a goal for that idea. Could you speak a bit about that too? What things you did in the early days after hearing that, to get everybody aligned and to make that happen?

Speaker 3: Sure. I mean, um, I'll kind of do high level then I'll zoom in. So I think the first part is, um, you know, no matter how small of a team you're working on, you know, it could just be your co-founders like, it wasn't the beginning. It could be, even if you're not running your own company, but you're running, you're running a team within teams like you, if you're in a leadership role or you want to be one day, like the good news is you have, you have control over the culture. Right. And I think what, um, what people don't do is they don't believe it's the most important thing. And so what that means is they don't actually invest into it. You know what I mean, invest, I mean, time and I also mean money, right. And, and you try to, you try to create an excellent culture.

Speaker 3: You want an excellent culture, but you're not willing to actually make the investment that's going to generate the return. And so, you know, from the beginning we would, um, you know, we always wanted to have, like, from the beginning, just like overpay for, for benefits. Um, we would overpay for, uh, like off-sites that we would do, uh, quarterly offsites. We still do them, um, which costs a lot of money and a lot of time, but man, what comes out of it is so amazing, um, you know, different events that we put on. Um, and yeah, and just like trying to listen to two team members and, you know, if they are really, if we think it'd be a great opportunity to provide, um, you know, free, uh, like mental health classes, like we'll do that, you know? And, and it's like just not being afraid to, to spend money on things, um, because it's going to have a great return. So we've always done that.

Speaker 1: Yeah. That investment in culture keeps the amazing talent that you attract as well. And in your space, you're competing against for-profit companies that probably have bigger benefit packages, bigger things to offer their employees. So culture has to be a focus for you to succeed. Part of this is also relying on donors and getting people to buy into the mission and give you that money. And these checks in order to reach this goal, this million goal have to get bigger. So how do you approach this, where the presentations and the stakes get higher, and now every time you're in a room with a potentially larger donor, you know, how big of an impact that could have, do you have a mental process you go through to prepare yourself?

Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, it's definitely evolved over the last couple of years. Um, you know, now I'm personally, you know, thinking and working on a lot of just like, you know, seven figure plus partnerships, even getting into eight figure. And, um, that was a process, right. Again, didn't start that way. Um, but, uh, I think, I think what you have to, what I've learned is to be able to go and like really ask someone, not just, if it's just one person, maybe that's different, but to actually put together a program or you can ask multiple people for a million dollars and above, um, you have to be able to fulfill that. Right. And I think you have to have the, the capacity to actually take that money and deploy it in a, uh, a highly effective way. Right. Which for us is about, is about the impact.

Speaker 3: And so I think we've done a well, we try to focus on is how do we get really great at having the team and the strategy and the operations and position to where if somebody wants to come in with, uh, with a partnership of that size, we're able to deploy it and not just be like, holy smokes. Like, did you see this? So now what do we do with it? Right. Like that's not how you're going to continue to get these larger partnerships. So, um, it's like first it's like focusing on like our, our actual product, right? The on-ground delivery of basically impact and housing is the most important part. And if we can get that right then, you know, we're attracting, um, other, other resources. And, and I just mentioned as an example, like we have different levels, right? That's, that's the highest level.

Speaker 3: Um, it's called the foundation. It's a million plus if anybody's listening, I'd love to talk to you about it. Um, but, but we, we have, and then we go all the way down to a program that's actually way more, um, uh, accessible for anybody. And it's a, it's a monthly giving program that we call the neighborhood. And the neighborhood is literally any amount that you want to give a month, $5. Our average is close to $40 a month. And every single month that that money is dedicated to, to helping a family get into, you know, multi-generational housing. And so, um, there's obviously different strategies for how you grow each of those. We have different teams for how you grow each of those. Um, but that's what we're working on. Yeah.

Speaker 1: And with innovation in this space, whether it's 3d printing or FinTech, when you're swinging for the fences, you're going to have some epic failures too. You're going to have some major misses. And how do you handle those setbacks and failures? And when do you know, to, to move on to change strategies, because this is a even more unique situation, because it's such a, a passion of yours and a core mission. I think many founders, their mission might be a little bit more monetary, or maybe they just stumbled into it and now it's working, but something that's. So in line with your personal mission, your core values, those failures have to sting.

Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. I think, um, they staying, but if you set them up in the right way, like when we set up more risky projects, you know, we are, you, you have to obviously be willing to take a risk where if something doesn't work, then you're going to learn from it and you can move on. Um, I, I seen there's a big difference and taking what I call calculated risk versus just dumb risk. Right. A dumb risk would be, I'm just going to kind of bet, like, you know, 50% of the company on this thing that I'm not sure about. I mean, that's very rare. Like you need to have an insane amount of conviction to do that. And some people do that from time to time. Like, that's definitely not me or us. Like, we try to take calculated risk where we can, we'll take a risk and like, we don't want it to fail, but if it fails, like we're going to be okay, right. That could be, you know, it was like maybe, you know, 10 or 15% or even higher 20% of our budget for that year, which sucks and is not what we want or intended to. But the worst case is we, we tried something that we thought had breakthrough potential. We learned along the way, and we can either take those learnings and try something similar, or we can say, you know what, this is just too hard and we need to go put our efforts elsewhere.

Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think understanding that the risks are worth it based on past risks, you've taken, right. Being able to take those lessons with you throughout all of this helps quite a bit. When you now have an opportunity to change people's lives. I mean, when we think about housing, it fundamentally will change that family's life and multi-generations of that family. What are some of your favorite success stories? Because we think about charities that really have impact. Yes, there are large numbers and everyone can get behind this idea of millions. But when you think about the actual stories of changing lives, that's what really get people to open up their wallets. What stands out from your experience thus far?

Speaker 3: Yeah. I'll give one story. Um, so there's, there's a family and so new stories, a little more than about six years old. And one of our first communities, um, was built about five years ago and an area called Nuevo who Scott law and El Salvador. And it was a family of five. Um, when we were building this first community, like, it was really cool that we're building it, but it was also the question of, well, this is one of our first ones, what's it going to be like in five years? You know? Um, and so I got to go back there, uh, about a couple of months ago. It was my first time traveling to the field since COVID. And, um, you know, I got to meet this family. That's been in their home for almost five years and it was, uh, it was, um, two young kids and a teenage daughter.

Speaker 3: The daughter was actually blind and she, um, before had to walk up a very, very, very steep hill that was prone to landslides to get to their shock. And I would walk up there and I'm in pretty good shape. And I mean, I would like lose my breath. It was like so steep and so hard. And I was just thinking like, she used to have to do this every day and now, you know, she's in a house and she, um, she actually now has a place. She loves music. So she has a place to, um, actually practice the piano and sing and she's getting a music scholarship, right. That's like one example. Um, uh, her, her parents, um, by having a new home have increased their income enough to where they've actually built an additional room onto the house. Um, another bedroom that's actually, uh, this, their daughter's now has her own bedroom for the condition that she's in.

Speaker 3: And we didn't fund that with charity. They paid for that themselves. They built that themselves because their income increased by having the house. Um, and then one of the kids, um, he wants to, I think he's like nine. He wants to be a vet. And, uh, and he talked about wanting to be like one of the best veterinarians and El Salvador and, uh, and like Outback. They now have, um, a few animals that they get to take care of and he gets to like work with and learn from. And so he now has a better chance of actualizing that dream or that potential by being in the environment that he's in. So that's one family story. And, um, you know, we're lucky to have at the end of this year, hopefully a little more than 4,000 of those.

Speaker 1: Congratulations on all the hard work as someone who started in their twenties as a very young leader to where you are. Now, if you could go back in time and give yourself advice, what advice would you have for you starting out in your twenties?

Speaker 3: I mean, I love that question. Um, I would say to, um, be absolutely obsessed with learning, um, but don't just stop at learning. Uh, also you have, you have to do right. You have to do you have to take risks. Um, I would say that, uh, your twenties is, I would argue probably your best time to go out and take calculated risks with your, with your career. It doesn't have to mean, you know, not everybody's listening has to start there an organization. Right. Of course. But it could be maybe joining a startup. It could be going into a different career that, you know, on paper, your friends or your peers would be like, wait, why are you going to do that? Like that's different or that it's not the same as the route that you could go, but if you feel that pull to do it, like you have to do it, you have to do it, or you're going to regret doing it. Um, and that any other thing I would encourage somebody with is, uh, even if it doesn't work the way that you want you are, you're truly gonna learn more than going a traditional safer route. Um, and, and that it's going to have a bigger return. So, um, I would just say, uh, to it, somebody in their early twenties, um to, to learn obsessives early, to take action and to do something that is against the status quo. If you feel a pull to do that

Speaker 1: Excellent advice for everyone in our audience who may be at that exact same crossroads, wondering themselves, we love asking each of our guests what their X factor is, what it is that makes you extraordinary. What do you think it is for yourself? What is your X factor?

Speaker 3: I, I think that, um, you know, I'm, by no means like pretty much ever, like just the smartest person in the room, like over the last, I guess, five years, my resume has gotten a little better than where I started from, but it's, I still view myself as very much, you know, an underdog. I think my X-Factor, my advantage has been there's, you know, there's a, there's a mantra that bold ideas attract bold people, you know, and, and fortune favors the bold. And I think that's probably been one of the main reasons for some of the growth we've had. And, and my learnings is like realizing that it's scarce to do something bold. Right? A lot of people talk about it. A lot of people think about it. There are not many people that actually do it. And so just by actually doing it, um, is scarce and is actually rare and is different. And I think, um, that's probably been new stories. X-Factor and probably my X-Factor as a leader.

Speaker 1: Incredible. Thank you for sharing your journey with our audience. Where can they go to find more about how to support you on this amazing mission? Yeah,

Speaker 3: You can go to our website is a new story, charity.org, or just Google new story. I'm on social media. Our handle is a new story charity, and then for myself, um, I'm on social, mainly Twitter and Instagram. It's just my name, which is at Brett Hagler.

Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Brett. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks guys.

Speaker 4: [inaudible]

Speaker 1: Also, could you do us the entire art of charm team, a huge favor. Could you head on over to apple podcasts and rate and review this show? It would really mean the world to us and it helps us bring on influential leaders like Brett. The art of charm podcast is produced by Michael Harold and Eric Montgomery until next week. I'm a AIJ and I'm Johnny stay charming.

Speaker 4: [inaudible].

Speaker 1: Well go back to the art of charm podcast, a show designed to help you communicate with power and become unstoppable on your path from hidden genius to influential leader.

Speaker 2: No, you have what it takes to reach your full potential. And each and every week we share with you interviews and strategies that help you transform your life by helping you unlock your X factor, whether you're in sales, leadership, medicine, building client relationships, or even looking for love. We got what you need. You shouldn't have to settle for anything less than extracting. I'm a J and I'm Johnny. Thank you everyone

Speaker 1: For tuning in let's kick off today's show today. We're talking with our good friend, Dr. Jonathan Horowitz. He is the director of the San Francisco stress and anxiety center. Jonathan's working with entrepreneurs, executives, creatives, and other professionals who are experiencing challenges at work or in their personal lives. Due to stress. His clients are often struggling to achieve some semblance of work-life balance, maintain their focus and motivation, manage competing, demands, and responsibilities, and clarify their goals and values. So if that sounds a bit like you, then you're going to love today's interview, and you're going to want to tune in log to the show, Jonathan, how you doing? So we were talking about this before you hopped on. We have actually never discussed stress on the show. It's just not a topic that we've really touched on. We've sort of danced around it and some of the other parts to it around uncertainty and dealing with the pandemic, but we've never really unpacked stress talked about its impacts, uh, certainly social impacts as well. So I think that's a great place to sort of start, but as we kick it off, we'd love to hear a little bit of your journey into psychology and what your origin story is.

Speaker 2: And, and something else I want to bring up there that you will be able to navigate us through. Jonathan, is that we had done some discussions or at least tried around depression. And because we're not experts on that, it's, this is where the waters got murky between anxiety, stress, and depression. So if you can articulate how stress is different and what it is and what we're going to be discussing, that will, I think, help this conversation and certainly will help AIJ and I, in this conversation. Yeah,

Speaker 3: I think I can do that. I think I can do that. Um, you know, listening back to everything that you guys have done, you know, I was, I was looking back through your guests and like I mentioned before, if I can be a fan boy for a second, like, I've been a big fan of the show for a long, long time. I mean, for years, like, and I love what you guys put out there and, and you really, you know, you provide a platform for, uh, a lot of great as say a lot of wisdom and a lot of forums, which is really cool. And I know a lot of your previous guests have talked about, you've had a lot of folks on like Steve Hayes, for example, talking about, um, they, they frame it more as anxiety. But I think in a lot of ways we're talking about this constant condition that we're dealing with, the mismatch between what we want and what we have in front of us.

Speaker 3: Right. And, um, this resistance that all can experience to the reality, uh, the resistance we have to what we're experiencing and what we're feeling and what we're thinking. And I think that shows up as stress. So you had asked me about, you know, my journey into psychology is probably a good place to start. I went to graduate school for psychology. I was in a clinical psychology program and I had, I just kind of landed in a program that was like an anxiety research program. Like I didn't actually set out to go and do that, but just by happenstance, I sort of wound up in this CBT for anxiety program where we were studying, how to treatments for anxiety really work. Like if you really drill into what people are doing in like exposure therapy and trying to figure out like what's actually working there, you know, trying to make, basically trying to make cognitive behavioral therapy more powerful and stronger.

Speaker 3: Right. Um, and it turned out to be a really good fit for me because like, I was an anxious person. I mean, I still am, you know, like I, I still have that, but, um, I had had enough experience with my own anxiety that like when I came across CBT and then acceptance and commitment therapy, I was like, whoa, I really get this. Um, I had had never like severe panic disorder, but I had, uh, done and some teaching before that for like the Princeton review, you would like have people come in, you teach them about like the SATs or whatever, help them, you know, improve their scores. And I remember doing one of these classes before I got into grad school, I was probably like 21, 22 with like a room full of kids, you know, probably 17 year old high school kids. And I was like teaching, going through the lesson lesson plan.

Speaker 3: And for whatever reason, I just had this surge of anxiety. And I just had this like massive, like Publix speaking, panic attack in front of you kids. It wasn't even like I was in front of like, you know, this audience, like, you know, Oscar acceptance award just in front of a bunch of kids. But I remember I like stepped out into the hall and I was just kind of like, oh my God, oh my God. Like, how am I going to go back in there? And I like went back into the classroom and I just kind of like white knuckled it through like the final half hour. And they may not have even known anyway, well, this was happening for me. Like it's entirely possible that none of them even knew what, what, or like remembered it. But for me it was like this searing thing for like the longest time afterwards.

Speaker 3: Like, what was that experience is that can happen to me again. And if I have to get up and teach in front of people, if I have to do public speaking, um, so I knew what it was like to experience like a really intensely anxiety provoking event. And then I had had the experience of forcing myself to get out and do it again and again, cause I had the job, I was halfway through the course. I couldn't just quit right there. You know? So I got back into it and taught more courses and um, over the years, you know, had gotten a lot better around things like that. But I think I could really relate to that experience. And I think so many people can have just, there's the thing in front of you that is anxiety provoking. And then there's all this other stuff that your mind puts around it. How do we get rid of that anxiety? How do we avoid it? How do we deal with it? This like Mehta anxiety thing. And um, so I liked training to help people with all of that other stuff. Cause once you can master that, that other stuff, you're just showing up for the anxiety and just improving your skills and you have to do that. Anything you're going to do, you're going to have to like come face to face with your fears and anxieties. So

Speaker 1: Absolutely. And I think, you know, your experience is so similar to a lot of our clients and in our boot camps, when we film them interacting, they'll come saying they have intense social anxiety and they'll watch the video back. And they're surprised at how calm they look externally and how you can't pick up on it. And that anxiety is very silent to everyone else. You're experiencing it. And internally it is a very difficult experience, but many outside don't see that don't pick up on that. And I think that also leads to a lot of shame and embarrassment around mental health because people don't perceive it like a normal ailment it's happening almost invisible unless it's in a very extreme form. So in our video work sessions, you know, they'll remark, wow. I can't believe I look that way on camera because inside I did not feel that way at all.

Speaker 3: Totally. And we're all looking at everyone else and comparing ourselves to them and we're assuming they have it together because we're all, most of the time, really good at holding things together. And in some ways that serves us really well, but ultimately it can be really isolating, you know? And then, and then when you see the mask fall on people and when you see people who know how to gracefully show some vulnerability, um, it draws us closer, you know, paradoxically, right? Like the whole time everyone's trying to keep together. But when you let it slip a little bit, it actually, uh, actually helps.

Speaker 1: Yeah. It creates that human connection, that vulnerability that we all crave and I'm sure, you know, many in our audience struggle with this perfectionism as well, that is anxiety provoking. So there's the comparison to others certainly. But then there's the expectation that they get everything right. And that they do everything perfect. And that just continues to add to that anxious.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's a shame because that perfectionism piece, that's something that I see in the clients I work with and we work with, so my clinic isn't San Francisco based, but we do teletherapy and we work with a lot of folks who are really, you know, high achieving really smart, um, often work in, in corporate, you know, tech companies in big, like might have big job titles, right. And so much imposter syndrome, you know, people feeling like they're not really who they say they are on LinkedIn, you know? Um, and the is in pieces is huge for people to like, I just see this all the time where, um, people will get frozen up. They're very capable, very talented and they can get completely frozen up, spend, uh, way too much effort on things that are pointless, um, operate sometimes really highly inefficiently in jobs where they need to be moving and clicking and making decisions.

Speaker 3: And, um, you know, so perfectionism in many ways is a hindrance, but then I'll hear people talk about it. Like it is this kind of a virtue, you know, like, oh, well, I, I really pride myself on, you know, getting the job done and not making no mistakes. And of course there are jobs, there are settings where that makes a lot of sense, you know, if you're a surgeon sure. Like you need to be really perfectionistic most of the time. Right. But I think for a lot of us in what we do, if we're knowledge workers, if we're creatives, like you guys are creatives, you know, perfectionism for you must be a huge hindrance, right? Like you just got to get it done and just keep moving ahead and producing and producing. Right. Which is

Speaker 2: Funny. I'm more on the artistic side than AIJ is on the, on the science side of things. And I can understand that and work through the perfection thing. And I'll just throw stuff up just to get a result and AJS first reaction to what I've thrown up as this, get it done is. And so then we have this clarity that I, I also think has benefited the, the company as well. Um, and, and we know that about each other and, and understanding that has allowed us to work together, which normally I think would be quite contentious.

Speaker 1: And I think for many in our audience, they probably wouldn't believe it, but there's still that self doubt. You know, we we've been doing this podcast for so long, in many in our audience think, oh, they have it together. They hit record. They publish. It's great. And there are episodes where I will check in with Johnny after. And I'm like, man, that felt flat. I didn't feel like I really brought a great conversation and he's like, you are fantastic. Let us drop this. Please don't let the perfectionism get in the way of us publishing this great conversation and unfortunate that I have Johnny, but that can really become a prison. If you let that perfectionism, keep you from hitting publish, keep you from starting that side hustle, keep you from going after that job promotion that you deserve. Another way to

Speaker 3: Think about perfectionism in this context is just ego, right? And it's really grounded in fear and control. It's like if I put something out there, then it's out of my control. I don't know how it's gon gonna respond. Um, there's this part of us that wants, like, I want to create something and I want to create it my way. And I want people to think, what I think is cool is cool about it. You know, it's like that little internal dictator and then you do stuff like this enough times and you realize that like the things that I said that I thought were profound and really cool, like didn't resonate, you know? And the things that I just made where to throw away then, and people are like, oh, that was like so interesting. It's like, who's in control here. You know, for

Speaker 2: Myself, I had to learn this through music. And if you rehearse until it's perfect, you're never getting onstage. And at some point you have to tell the guys, listen, we just got to go up there and do it. And this is going to be painful, but right. We're going to get, we're going to be better for it. And for myself, one of the, I think one of the easiest examples of this is the story of the Ramones. You have these four guys in Brooklyn, they couldn't play, but they wanted to be in abandoned. And this seventies, New York city, that was a lot of that going on. And that was a way that, that down and out kids could make something of themselves at that time. So regardless of their musicianship, they put this band together and they decided to do something that was completely different.

Speaker 2: That was on the radio. While everyone on the radio was putting these epic monumentous seven minutes songs together. They're like, well, our songs are going to be a minute and a half, two minutes and, and that's, and that's going to be it. And we're going to copy, um, basically, uh, sixties do a pop, but we're going to blast it through Marshall amps and we're going to wreck the room and they had done this and you can see their early shows that are on YouTube at CBGBs, where they play half a song and then get in a fight on stage. It's just, and it's mayhem. And at this point they don't have their image yet. It's a giant disaster, one glorious disaster, by the way,

Speaker 4: But their ideas

Speaker 2: And what they wanted to do came through first certain people. And those certain people encouraged them and supported them and celebrated them getting on that stage. And now we are seeing the Ramones, having to learn by playing on that stage in front of people. And we look at them as one of the most influential bands that every kid who picks up a pair of drumsticks or a guitar has to go through the Ramones voyage at some point to appreciate what they had brought due to getting on stage and making it happen and learning along the way. Yeah. They,

Speaker 3: They put it out there and people love the energy of it, right. I mean, they were, it wasn't about the money. The musicianship is like, this is new and it's different and we feel it. And they had to be able to, uh, just put it out there. Absolutely.

Speaker 2: And, and for any young, um, young kid, who's picking up an instrument, you're going to learn a lot going to taking your lessons and playing two YouTube videos, but you're going to learn more by taking your up to that stage and giving it all you got. Yeah. So you, you say as

Speaker 3: A young kid, but I'm someone who is like, I play guitar and stuff for fun as, as a hobby. And I find myself as an adult coming up against this again and again, like playing an instrument or trying to do anything creative, like it just puts you into that. You have to grapple with your own perfectionism and you have to grapple with your own fear every single time, right? Every time you're in front of people trying to record something

Speaker 2: To finish up. My point, what I love about the internet is that you have access to so many different people. So if you're playing at a club in your band, you're, you're subjected to their criticism, to the people who are coming to the show and maybe the people who frequent that venue or bar or wherever you're playing, they're not going to be into what you're doing. And you got to know from everyone who was there, but you put that same thing on the internet and there's some kid in Venezuela

Speaker 4: Or, or, or Italy or

Speaker 2: Wherever. Who's like, this is the greatest band of all time. And I found them and it remains special to that person who found exactly what they were looking for. And you just happened to be the person to do it. So you have an opportunity to present yourself to a giant audience where in that audience, there are going to be a swath of people who really vibe with what you're doing. And there's your audience before you had to take your band and take your records and try to get in front of people. Now you can just put it up and people will find you. Yeah, that's one of the

Speaker 3: Blessings of the internet era, right? I mean, for better or for worse, anyone out there can find the people that resonate with them. And I think we have a duty to try and be our best selves and just find those people who resonate with our message and who we're trying to do, what we're trying to do

Speaker 1: And ignore the hate. That's the other flip side of it being online. I'm

Speaker 3: Curious because you guys have a really big platform, like, do you experience that? Do you have to like tune things out?

Speaker 1: Absolutely. Anytime you put your voice out there, your perspective, there's going to be people who don't agree, even with the most mundane of all takes that we have and seminar audience don't agree with the tone of our voices or the way that we interview our guests. And it's interesting because everyone has a different style in the way that we choose to bring on guests. As we, we want to hear more practical information that the audience can use. And Johnny and I are penultimate learners. We're constantly learning from our guests. So for me, it's an opportunity to, to get an hour, to actually learn how I can personally grow. And of course share that with the audience. And there are other interviewers that will take different styles with the exact same guests that we have on. But we've learned over the years that if you get too hung up on the hate while you're never going to hit publish, you're never actually going to put something out there, realize that it just comes with the territory. And even Joe Rogan talks about, you know, not looking at YouTube comments for that exact reason. And I

Speaker 2: Want to add to this, the easiest thing to, to recognize and understand is people are always going to dig into the most obvious thing. So I have a rock and roll haircut. That's what they go in on. I have a voice that is unique. That's exactly what they go in on. So anything that is that, that makes you different or makes you unique. That's what they drill in on. And that's the one, those are the things that you have to lean on that make you special that make you different, that, that show your unique approach to things. But yet that is the exact thing that they want to hammer on and take from you. So

Speaker 3: Over time, I guess you just know, like, these are the things, this is what's going to happen. You have to get used to it. You get a nerd to hearing the same stuff.

Speaker 1: Well, a funny little anecdote around this exact thing, and I think will be interesting to the audience in a number of ways, part of bringing you on the show was my own issues with stress over the summer. And stress really got the best of me. And I ended up working with one of your therapists at your clinic, and he did this exercise with me. So if you take a piece of paper, you draw two lines on it. You make three sections on the piece of paper. He rattled off a list of things for me to put in one of these sections. So at the very top of the piece of paper, the left-most box is completely in my control. The right most box is completely automatic control. The middle box is the gray area. And we went through a lot of prompts, but the one that he gave me is people like me, is that in my control, is that out of my control?

Speaker 1: Or is that in the gray area? I think many who listened to this show would assume that I would put that's completely in my control in the left-hand box. Some listeners would say, okay, Jay that's in the middle based on what we've learned. And I actually put it in the right it's completely out of my control. I can put my best foot forward. And I've learned in 15 years of being on the show that I could deliver, what I think is my best performance and people are going to hate it. And people aren't going to like me for reasons that are completely out of my control. And coming to terms with that, you know, in the beginning caused me a lot of stress and a lot of pain and anguish. Of course you want people to like you, of course, you wish you could have more control and agency in getting people to like you.

Speaker 1: And even with all the tips and tricks and secrets, we have our guests share that Johnny and I have worked on our communication, our presentation. I put it in that right. Most box, because even with my best efforts, on my best days, there are people listening to this who are clicking to the next episode, going into iTunes and giving us one star. And that's out of my control. And I understand that now, and it doesn't cause me stress anymore. So it was a very profound exercise to go through to realize, you know, how am I orienting my life? And the last prompt he asked me was, you know, where would this have been five years ago or 10 years ago? Would you still put it in this right box? And I said, no, actually I probably would have put it in the left box. I would've said it's in my control. Of course I want people to like me and I can control them, but that's a fallacy. We don't have that level of control in the way people perceive us. And when you start hitting, publish, you start putting things out publicly. You learn that lesson rather quickly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Well, I appreciate you talking about that. I mean, but so as you're talking about that, like people liking you and you being in, or out of your control, I have this like internal reaction, like, ah, like this is so, ah, it's hard to talk about or something, you know, because it's, I think it's really deep for all of us, like we want to be liked. And we recognize that there's a lot of, uh, upside to that. And so we spend the first half of our life, you know, all high school, all the way up through there, through there, figuring out how to be liked in a lot of ways. Like, what are the things that if I do them, people are going to respect me. Girls are gonna like me or whoever, you know, like that's a really important part of growing up. And then at a certain point in your life, you have to be able to step away with, from that and think about, okay, how do I be true to myself? Um, how do I find what I really have to offer and trust that if I'm able to do that and put down those old strategies that I'm going to find my way into the right parts, the right places in my life, the right career, have the right friends, the right partner partners, you know, like those, those are all the fruits of doing the work to figuring out who you really are. And it's difficult, man. It's hard.

Speaker 1: It is. And it can be stressful. And part of what Johnny and I have shared on the show is our upbringing being blue collar in nature. And, uh, both of our dads selling us to work our tail off and be stubborn and keep outworking people. And unfortunately that stiff upper lip that work ethic can lead to you not managing stress well, and I had a brief hospital stay a few years back because of blood pressure and stress. Even with that warning signal, I just started taking the meds, listened to my cardiologist and just thought, oh, I'm not going to worry about the stress component, the mental health component. And then things piled up in the past year from having to change the business, remove all of our in-person training, which is something that John and I absolutely loved doing and having a crossroads of, well, what are we doing as a company now with, with COVID and that stress just piled high.

Speaker 1: And I was fortunate enough that my fiance, Amy recognized the warning signs and said, Hey, I don't think you're managing stress very well, but internally I didn't know that I was really managing or not managing it. I just took it as well. That's what happens when you work hard, like this is just how life is supposed to be. It's supposed to be stressful. So if you could help our audience recognize some of these warning signs that maybe they aren't managing stress as well as they think they are. And those opportunities that maybe you should seek some support and some help. Yeah. So one

Speaker 3: Of the things that's about stress is the, when you're under chronic stress, it becomes difficult to see it in yourself. And it becomes difficult to remember who that person was, who wasn't stressed out, you know? Um, so I think in terms of resilience and stress management, a lot of it is around trying to keep yourself out of that red line area, right? Because once you cross, it's like once you cross a certain threshold of chronic stress, it can become much more difficult to ramp yourself back down. So it's not so much about having strategies to use in the moment when you're really stressed. Although we can talk about those too. I think overall, what we're trying to do with our clients is help people put together a lifestyle, uh, a series of behaviors, you know, make consistent decisions that are gonna help them stay out of that, that red zone.

Speaker 3: Right. Um, you asked about how can you recognize when, when you're there? I mean, I think if you're noticing that you're losing your appetite for one thing, you know, if you're not sleeping, like these are physiological markers, right? But like if your physiological physical health is not where it should be, I think that's the first thing that you should notice him for. A lot of people sleep is a big indicator. Um, I have clients who say that, you know, they can only get a good night's sleep when they're on vacation from their job. Well, that's a good indication that you're experiencing chronic stress, right? So that's a big one. Um, I think noticing the way you react to people like, you know, how combative, how irritable can you be at the, you know, when you're under chronic stress, you are unable to, uh, censor yourself, right?

Speaker 3: You, you, you're unable to inhibit those responses that are not necessarily helpful. And we see that like, there's a good, um, physical reason for this, right? There's a good biological reason for this. Um, if you think about like the fight flight or freeze response, right? When an animal is under stress, animal is stressed out, you know, they're going to be looking for the exit. It's like, that's the fight response, uh, or the flight response. Um, the freeze response, you know, feeling overwhelmed and not able to respond, you know, just get small and kind of freeze up. That's a defensive response. And then there's the fight aspect where, you know, you get combative in your elbow and kind of like testy with people when you're really stressed out. So these are all indications that you are, uh, an organism. You are an animal who is experiencing stress, and there's a cascade of physiological responses that are leading you to have behavioral tendencies that are different than they would be when you're at rest, stop

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Speaker 3: The problem for human beings, right? Like we're not just, you know, rats or something, right? Like the problem for human beings with being under stress aside from health consequences. Because I would say that's a whole other thing that there's a lot of misunderstanding about that. Um, w w what I'll talk to clients about and try and help them understand is that like the problem, when you have chronic stress, like this is that you can't show up and be the person that you want to be, you, most of us want to show up and be someone who is patient and who is kind, and who is able to access that charitable, empathetic parts of ourselves. Right. But when we're stressed out, we can't do that. Um, we can't be creative. Like, that's the other thing. Uh, if you look at an animal who is, um, in a very relaxed state, they have a lot of like behavioral, a big wide behavioral repertoires, how you would talk about this and behavioral psychology.

Speaker 3: They can do a lot of different things. Once that animal gets very stressed out and scared, you know, they're just looking for the exits or whatever. It is very narrow in terms of what they can do and what they can focus on. We live in a world now where we need to be creative to live our lives. We need to have access to like creative thinking. And if we're always in a place of like, okay, how do I just get through this? How do I get through this? How do I get out of this? We're not going to be able to live the lives we want. It's definitely demonstrated

Speaker 4: Through Maslow's

Speaker 2: Hierarchy of needs. When you have those basic needs set and you're feeling good, then your brain has the freedom to start looking at other areas. What things can I make? What things can I do better? Where can I improve? Uh, what can I do now, outwardly to help other people now that we are taken care of? And I think the other thing that you mentioned there, and to be able to understand and see the warning signs before it gets too heavy, is having a good base of how you feel when you're at your best and to live in, in that, in that lane for a while. So, you know, when you're off of it and when you know, oh, something is up, I'm not at a hundred percent, I'm, I'm a little blurry today, or something thought feeling right. I'm a little off, because without that, if you live a life that isn't structured and you're perhaps, uh, dependent on or doing a lot of drinking, um, for myself and I used to smoke cigarettes, like these things, don't allow you to

Speaker 4: Reach at your height, uh,

Speaker 2: At your best. So it's difficult to gauge whether or not you're off or not. And that makes it easy for stress to compound, and then overwhelm you. I agree.

Speaker 3: Like those things will cloud your judgment. And again, the more stress you're under the less good, less good your judgment is going to be right. Cause you're probably not sleeping as well and eating as well. And things like that. So having practices that will lead you back to that person and give you, I always think of like, if you've ever been to, um, swamp land or like a lake or something, they have that depth marker coming up. And it says like, the water is at like five feet, eight feet, whatever. Uh, when you have practices like meditation, for example, or exercise or journaling where you're going to do this thing every single day, no matter how you feel, it kind of acts like that marker where you can go, like I'll have days where I sit down and meditate and I'm like, I feel fine.

Speaker 3: I'm fine. I'm fine. And then like 10 minutes later, I'm like, you know what, like, Jesus, I am like super anxious today. Like I didn't even realize that. And then once I see it, I can kind of go, all right, what's going on today? What am I, you know, and I like walk through it and then I can show up to the meeting or the call or whatever, and be much more centered and not, not get hijacked because we all know that feeling of getting hijacked where you're just like, oh my God, why did I say, did not realize I was that irritable or whatever.

Speaker 1: Yeah. And I certainly think it also changes your perception. So when you're in that chronic state of stress, you're not even seeing the warm fun signals. You're only picking up on the negative latching onto it, holding on lashing out. And that was certainly part of my experience. Uh, and what Amy noticed was just how irritable I was at very small things, which is totally unusual for me. And it was a challenge because I thought, again, going back to the way I was raised, I just got to outwork this problem. Like, this is just yet another problem facing the company. And I just have to outwork it and there's going to be stress associated with it, but I can just toughing it out. And it wasn't until I actually started working with a therapist that I realized I was not serving myself by toughing this out. And instead by focusing inward and looking at what are those triggers, what are those patterns in my behavior that lead to that chronic state that lead to that red line, as you said, I now know how to safely navigate the stress that's going on in my life without letting it get to the red line where I'm not sleeping, I'm not eating and I'm irritable. Great.

Speaker 3: I'm glad to hear that, that you did that. And then it was helpful for you. I mean, it, that makes me so happy on so many levels. Um, and that voice you're talking about, like that idea that you just got to work through it, right. I think that's a cultural voice. That's something that we're told our whole lives. You know, you, you gotta outwork the competition, you gotta just grind, grind, grind. And again, it does make sense in certain contexts, right. Especially when you're young, like when you're in high school or college, or you're trying to get your career launched. Like there are times when you're really, really focusing. I think the nature of the challenges we face changes as we get older. And I think about, um, I like to do crossword puzzles, right? And sometimes I'll get to the end of a crossword puzzle.

Speaker 3: I'm on a plane or something. I'll have like three clues left and I'll just be like, I am just gonna bear down and just figure it out. And I'll just kind of hammer at it. And at a certain point, I'm like, I'm not this isn't gonna happen. And then I look back at it, you know, an hour later and the answers just come to me. So it's not about working through the problems we have in that way of just grinding. A lot of times we really need to step out change context, access, creativity, access, empathy, empathy is a big one. A lot of times, we're just not seeing things from someone else's perspective because we're so locked up. And once we have access to those things, it's like, oh, I have this super power. So problem solving, you know, we all have it.

Speaker 1: Well, you bring up a great point. And, and what we talk about with our X factor is if you are in a state of chronic stress, you can't find those super powers. You can't channel that ability. If all you're doing is just bashing at the problem and putting yourself in a state of not sleeping, not eating, not exercising and letting it overwhelm you. And right now, for many of us, a big part of stress is this work from home state. And I know that even impacted me partially over the summer was holy cow. You know, my office is now in my house and I don't have any separation. I don't have a place to go. We used to have an office Johnny and I would go work at the office. And then once you left the office, you had that sort of state of, okay, now I can relax. I can enjoy some leisure. It seems for many of us with work from home, that those lines are completely blurred and it's creating even more stress in our home life. Is that something that a lot of clients are facing and, and how can we start to create some space in our life to manage this new stress?

Speaker 3: Yeah. This has been incredibly common. We've, we've seen a lot of folks dealing with these challenges over the course of COVID. Um, a lot of the folks we work with are in the bay area. They're in San Francisco, they're in places where, you know, some people have a roommate, some people have six roommates in the house, you know, um, it's gotten a little better since the pandemic real estate wise, but, um, this is how a lot of people are living and, um, we've had to help clients be creative in the way they structure their time and structure their location too. So one thing that I think is important is to have rituals. Okay. So ideally just step back, I think in the best case scenario, you have your dedicated office spot in your house. You know, maybe you have an actual office, maybe this is where you do your work, right.

Speaker 3: Um, that's the best not everyone can do that. If you can't do that, if you can have some rituals or ways that you can really signal to yourself that you're shifting from the workspace, from the work Headspace into the casual home hangout Headspace. And sometimes that can be physical. Like I had a client who lived in a small apartment in the city and he's in there with his girlfriend all day long. And they're like working at the kitchen table. This is during the depths of the pandemic, you know, when like no one was going anywhere and they were working all day at the kitchen table and then work would just bleed over into home at night. And it was all this Murph. It's like mess of like work and home and no sleep and everything. So one of the things we said, well, you know, maybe in the morning you can have a ritual of like set the kitchen table up for, for work, right.

Speaker 3: And put your laptops out and get all your things together. And then when you're done at the end of the day, uh, you break all of that stuff down and you put your place mats out and you put up your pictures of your friends and you light a candle and you kind of are sending yourself a really powerful signal that we are now moving into a different place. Right. Um, it's a very subtle kind of thing, but it can be really powerful, uh, as a, like a, like a border, like a boundary, you know? Um, and then behavioral boundaries can be really helpful to, uh, for me it was going for walks, especially when we were in the really intense lockdown phase. Like in the morning I would go for a walk and then I'd sit and meditate for 10 minutes and then start working. And it was like, here's my signal to start the day. And then at the end of the day, I would go for a walk and it was just like, I'm kinda like clearing all that energy out. You know what I mean? Just like shifting my mindset. And then I felt like I could come back home and sort of be a different person. We had all that stuff naturally pre pandemic. And I think we have to work to create it now. Absolutely.

Speaker 1: And the, the ritual is a component that we've talked a lot about on the show. Even the smallest thing, like the ritual of making coffee, you know, that for me and Johnny is, is something in the morning that we sort of tied to, okay, now I'm starting my day. Now I'm starting work mode AIJ and it doesn't have to be this elaborate thing, but again, creating those mile markers of like, okay, I'm turning on for work. I'm turning off for work and giving yourself that space to de-stress because as we know, sitting in front of a computer, having slack open, being on zoom, taking calls, all of that, doesn't give you rest or relaxation that you need to recharge. And if you're doing that 24 7 at the kitchen table and then Wolf and down some food right next to the laptop, you're well on your way to burn out. I certainly

Speaker 2: Know how important my morning ritual is. And then of course the evening, but I even have a ritual when I begin to write music, which is it's usually in the evening. Uh, so the it's it's dusk out. I will set up mood lighting, uh, with, with everything in the house, lights, some candles and it's is signifying just a place to, to release and to get in that, that spirit. And if I don't do that, it doesn't work as well. I'm, I'm just, I'm not transported to a place where I can let go of certain things and focus on others and it's, and for myself who was always have been in a band, uh, I now find myself due to COVID and moving to Vegas that I I'm not in that environment, but I had to simulate the walking into a rehearsal room and I had to do that by setting up an atmosphere that was different during the day.

Speaker 3: Yeah. So it sounds like you've found a way to adapt and to find a ritual and routine that works for you. And that's so important for everyone. I think, regardless of what kind of work you're doing is, but especially if you're working from home now, um, this is, this is so unnatural and it's such a big shift

Speaker 1: And we talk a lot about self-care. We hear self-care in, in modern media. And typically that involves, you know, exercise and nutrition, but not as much time is really spent on mental health. So what are those things we can do to practice self-care for our mental health, again, to avoid the red line situation? I think there's

Speaker 3: A few different things you can do. You know, part of it is things you can start doing. And part of things is that you can stop doing, um, in terms of things that you can start doing that are really important. And this is all about habits. I think like daily habits are much more important than big grand gestures, right? Um, one of the most basic ones we look at as mental health professionals is just social context, right? Like how often do you spend time with people you love? How often are you able to speak with them, see them, you know what I mean? That you're in your friends and people you care about. A lot of us have been dealing with the isolation of pandemic and ways that we can overcome that. So that's, that's a number one I would say. Um, I think exercise and movement are hugely important.

Speaker 3: Um, so powerful and changing your mind state, right? Like if you're feeling down and stressed out and if you're intensely anxious, go at least for a walk, go walk around better yet, go for a run. You know, those kinds of things are, are really powerful. Um, meditation, this is one of those things like mindfulness types of practices, like meditation and yoga and Tai Chi and stuff like that. I'm so happy to see these things getting much more accepted and popular. I feel like 10, 15 years ago it was like, Ooh, you know, what is that? There was kind of a weird thing around it, but now it's so widely. And so incredibly powerful, the most difficult thing with meditation that I see is like people have a hard time to implementing it. And I know I struggled for many years to have a consistent meditation practice.

Speaker 3: And this is something where I think if you can do it even one minute a day, you know, one to five minutes a day, just to make a practice of just sitting down and just getting focused on your breathing, gives you a bit of a touch point. And then it's easier to expand on that to 10 minutes or 20 or whatever more if you're going to do that. You know, but, but consistency is hugely important. Um, and those are the, you know, getting nature is another big one. Just getting outside, being around trees or whatever kind of nature you have near you is incredibly important. Um, I live in the middle of Oakland and like, I've got all these buildings around. So really important to me to make a point every day to go be around greenery some point every day. Um, the other thing in terms of like what I said, there are things you can stop doing.

Speaker 3: And we were talking a little bit about this at the beginning, but taking control of your media environment is incredibly important right now. You know, times are really hard. There's a lot going on in the world that Bob Marley song so much trouble in the world, you know, that's, that's what we're going through right now. And if you just passively receive that all the time, it can be really bad for you. Um, I, you, this is just from personal experience. There was a while there where my routine was like to wake up and jump onto Twitter and just like, what are today's arguments? You know, what are, give me some takes and give me some arguments and some back and forth. And, um, it wasn't serving me well, because what would happen is I would get to my calls at 8 39 in the morning and sit down and I'd be all irritable and amped up.

Speaker 3: And I would feel super powerless about all this stuff going on. And what's the biggest atrocity and all this stuff. And at a certain point, I decided to take kind of a, I did a cold reset where I just stepped away from all the news for about a month and a half and was just like, I'm just not even going to go there. And then when I reengaged with it, it was in a much more conscious way where like, today I'll go on Twitter or I'll read the news or I'll do whatever, but I'm much more aware of how this is affecting me. And I noticed if I start to get into that doom loop where I'm just looking for something that's going to make me feel anxious, or if I'm looking for outrage, I kind of go, okay, I got to step up on this because it's not going to work. It's not good. Johnny's smiling.

Speaker 1: He has a lot to say about those empty media calories. Oh

Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, for, for social, I mean, Twitter is certainly my favorite just because it's certainly fun and I have a lot of laughs on it, but the downside of it is can be overwhelming. And as, as much as entertainment as it can be, it can definitely work you up. And then again, to go back to AJS exercise with the box, you're sitting there going, whoa, so yeah, the world's on fire and what am I going to about it kind of like, oh, I'm not gonna do anything about it. And I'm like, oh, okay. So I'm going to go for a walk. Well, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Everything's horrible. So what are you gonna do? I'm going to, I'm going to tweet about it. I'm going to argue with somebody

Speaker 1: Evolution around, okay. I'm going to consume the news. And at the start of the pandemic, I wanted more of the news. I wanted to protect myself or business family, friends. And through that, I was like, you know what? I need the news even faster. So I ended up finding myself on Twitter. And of course the news is published even faster in 140 characters. And then around the middle of summer, when the riots hit LA and I was on the local news, was on the TV, I'm on Twitter. And I'm seeing on Twitter that our favorite Italian restaurant is burning to the ground with an arsonist. And I turned to Amy and I'm like, I can't believe this. The world is literally on fire that we know here in LA. And she's like, can you please just turn off this local news, just take a step away from Twitter for a minute.

Speaker 1: I don't like what I'm seeing from you. You are in a doom loop and the next day come to find out that was not accurate information. So not only did I get myself worked up about our favorite Italian restaurant burning to the ground, it wasn't even real. It wasn't even true. And that's when I realized, okay, I need to step away from Twitter. There's really nothing that I'm gaining from getting the news that quickly. And we had friends a few years ago tell us that they don't interact with the news at all and their content. And we kind of shrug our shoulders at that. Like, wow, that's a pretty strong take. And I'll tell you now that I've unplugged all the important news still gets to me. I still know about Afghanistan, but I'm not going and refreshing websites and chasing down this information because everyone else around me is chasing down this information.

Speaker 1: So I'm going to get the news, whether I'm avoiding it or not just through casual conversation, interacting with my friends, family members. So that for me is a much healthier way to consume what's going on versus where I was a little over a year ago, when things in LA were dire the pandemic, the lockdown, everything was going on. And it was just consistently hearing about the new awful things going on in the world. And yeah, exactly that a frozen state of freight of my own shadow. I don't want to go out. I don't know that I can trust anyone and that is not helpful for our mental health. The other

Speaker 2: Thing about it is because of the way it is set up and everyone's engagement, you will find whatever it is that you're looking for. And once you realize that, that, that, whatever it is, it's right there, that then you're like, well, wait a minute. Well, how's it news. Um, how is this important? I can, whatever lens I want to see it from. That's what I get. And not only a couple sources, as many as I want to bolster, whatever, uh, whatever I want to take away from it. So how does that offer you any value when you're just making it up and finding everything that you need to back up those assumptions? I mean, that's, once you realize that you're like, oh, I got to put a better filter on and I need to take some time off.

Speaker 3: Well, it's like we were saying before about, you can find anybody out there who aligns with you and likes you like pizza, we're doing this themselves all the time. And then you find that the same for people that have the same opinion as you. And just read that stuff again and again, and then you're isolated and, you know, some people break from reality entirely. So yeah, it's, I think we need to be more careful than ever with this stuff, with the media that we consume. And I would, I would put social media in that bucket as well, you know? Cause that's a whole other thing you're just looking at a bunch of, um, curated, filtered stories about your friends and their perfect lives, right? The quote unquote perfect lives. Um, and it can have a similarly distorting and disempowering impact on us as well. You know, all very well-intended, but when you're miserable at your desk and you see your friend, you know, on vacation, uh, in Tahiti or something, it's like that can have a disheartening effect on you. And there's all sorts of, um, yeah, the emotional impact, I guess that can be unintended.

Speaker 2: Well, think of it this way, 40 years ago, you didn't know all this stuff that you know about your friends now because people are just posting their inner thoughts and their pictures. And you didn't know any of this stuff. You only knew when you asked. So now not only do you know all this stuff, you're being judging about it and you're comparing and contrasting things that you would never know previously with your life now. And so you're, you're, you're literally driving yourself insane. Yeah

Speaker 3: Know, like, I, I was never insecure about my kitchen, but then I saw this,

Speaker 5: Someone I went to middle

Speaker 3: School with or something that like, why would you ever know that? Yeah.

Speaker 1: And I think for many of us, we don't realize that we have control. We can turn this off. And we work with clients who find themselves gravitating towards the news or social media or video games as a distraction. And they think they're doing themselves a service by, okay, this is just me unplugging. I just need this to unwind. But actuality is getting them even more wound up. It's robbing them of the social connection, which you talked about earlier, which is far more important than what streaming on Netflix, being in touch with people you love, actually fostering, developing those relationships has been proven scientifically to add years to your life, to help you mentally and physically sustain everything that life has to offer. But unfortunately the news, the social media makes it so easy for us to feel connected artificially and not actually invest in those real connections that we need as humans. Yeah.

Speaker 3: I S I see that happening and I wonder how much of this has to do with social anxiety too. You know, if you're in a place where you're physically connected to other people and every day, you know, let's say it's back in the day, every day, you got to leave your house. Cause he got to go get food and you got to go be around people and run into people and have conversations. It seems like there's not as much space for social anxiety to get purchased, uh, to get, to get a hold of you when you're forced into all of those interactions with people all the time. And now if you can just as easily, you know, have these pseudo interactions online and then it can almost be weird. I remember, especially during pandemic, like clients talking about how weird it was to actually see people in person and it's like awkward. And now do you shake hands or do you not? And everything. Um, so I think it's reinforced.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, these are learned practice skills and we talked about it on a previous episode. Even I had a bit of social anxiety coming out of this simply because I wasn't in the room with people for a very long time. We all weren't. And I laugh, especially because up in the bay area, I know here in LA, too, I've seen it. You know, I used to crack the joke. Well, at least we get to socialize with our door dash delivery guy or our Instacart delivery. And now they have robots delivering our food. So we, we are literally removing all social interaction. We can go on an app, we can order whatever we want. Our dry cleaning gets picked up. They don't look us in the eye. They're wearing a mask, we're wearing a mask. And all of a sudden you've gone weeks on end without any real human interaction, that anxiety, that stress is going to be through the roof.

Speaker 3: Totally. Yeah. Any, and it also, I mean, it gives you this, this control in a way over your life, that in some ways it's very comforting, but it also erases a lot of that spontaneity. Like yesterday, actually I was out, uh, eating someplace and I ran into someone that I hadn't seen in like four years just randomly on the street. And it was really cool. It was like, oh yeah, that can happen. People can just show up in your life, uh, you know, uninvited, like in a good way. And it's cool that hadn't happened in the longest time because of all this, I'm excited for that to start happening more. Yeah. We're herd animals

Speaker 2: And we get value from the heart. We get value from being from attention approval and an acceptance. And if you're not getting that, if you're not having those social interactions and you're just having pseudo interactions and you're like, oh, I guess somebody liked my posts. I mean, your needs are not being met. And because your needs are not being met, that is going to manifest itself in behaviors that you're going to find unappealing and that other people are going to find other unappealing. And it may even put you in a position to be supplicating or combative to get the attention approval and acceptance that you're not regularly getting anymore. And again, this goes to putting another red flag of what you're seeing these behaviors come out and you are seeing yourself do things that in the past, you wouldn't have done this there. That is another red flag. Totally.

Speaker 3: It's where, you know, bringing this back to stress, it's like we, uh, normally help each other through stress. We kind of soothe one another socially and you see this in your workplace. If you have a really difficult interaction or a meeting or something, and you go in there with one of your coworkers, they're like, oh my God, what was that about? I know that was crazy. You are soothing each other and you're bringing down your stress levels and you can see that physiologically right there changes hormonally that occur in interactions like that. So we've set up this social structure, especially lately that just doesn't support those kinds of real interactions. We get them somewhat, you know, we're like we are having that somewhat right now. Right. And we're all virtual, but I think there's just much less opportunity to do that. Um, you don't have those hallway moments. You don't have those running into people. So we have to work extra hard right now to set up lives where we have the social inputs, where we have those interactions where we're really, really taking care of our stress. And we've got to do all this in the face of a cultural conditioning that says, Nope, just grind harder, grind harder, just suck it up and do it. So it's a lot to remember.

Speaker 2: I want to point out with all of this, that everything that you have just said, I have not seen anyone who's put into a leadership position in our government talking about these very things that all of us need in order to stay healthy.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Sadly, I mean, following the science, unfortunately we don't follow all of the science when it comes to our mental health, especially in the science is pretty clear. Human connection is essential to our health, to soothing the stress. As we're talking about to feeling valued, to tapping into your true potential to self-actualization, that's all part of community and feeling connected. And unfortunately, when we feel isolated as humans, that not only can lead us to dark places that can lead to the ultimate end in suicide. And unfortunately, as John has talked about with some of his friends through this pandemic, the isolation became so great. We're seeing more and more of that. And I, I don't want to rail on technology. I know we have some people write in or about our views on technology because technology is also helping. And, you know, one of the things that I've thoroughly enjoyed in working with a therapist through you is that I have access through zoom.

Speaker 1: He is up in the bay area, I'm here in LA. And when I talk to friends locally about seeing a therapist, they're always like, oh, it's so challenging. I don't know how I'm gonna find one. And then I gotta get got to schlep there and the parking. And there's just always these excuses. And I'm so excited that with telemedicine, we're lowering that bar to make it more accessible to everyone, because I think it has such a powerful benefit and it shouldn't be something that you don't do because it's too difficult. It shouldn't be something that is more accessible. And when I share with my friends, Hey, I found my therapist online and I see my therapist online. I don't have to go into an office. There's no dealing with parking here in LA. They're all surprised. So what have you seen the changes through telemedicine and the impact that you are having with your clinic in the bay area?

Speaker 3: It's been so interesting that the pandemic thing, like from that perspective, so right before the pandemic happened, we were trying to encourage our clients and our therapist to do more telehealth, because it's just a lot easier for those reasons that you were saying, right. Instead of taking three hours out of your day or whatever it is to, to go and travel and see your therapist and everything, you can take an hour, you know, it's pretty convenient. And, um, we got a lot of like, I don't want to say pushback. We got some pushback. There were some people who were like, absolutely not. I don't want to do that. Um, I work in the old fashioned way. It's, face-to-face you have this experience in the room, you know? Um, and then from clients, it was like, just not people were just not that interested. They were like, you know, you go see your therapist in the office.

Speaker 3: That's how you do it. And then you fast forward about three months, you know, it was around June or July of last year when we just had a huge number of folks seeking help. And it was like everybody in the world, just like, okay, this is just how we do this. Now, if we're doing grandma's birthday party over zoom, you know, we're going to do this, we're going to do therapy over zoom. And it is, it just been a huge shift. Um, the good thing about it is that you have more resources available to people. As far as one-on-one mental health goes, you have more resources available at all different price points at all different types of models and services, right. Than you ever have before. Um, the difficult thing with that is it can be really overwhelming for people still, you know, it's like anything else when you try to figure out where do you start, where do you go for help? Um, it can be really difficult to, to figure that out. I think

Speaker 1: It's important to realize that with its accessibility means you should at least try it. You know, I think many people dismiss it and I've talked to clients of ours. Who've been dismissive. And I view coaching is essential as therapy, allowing yourself to talk through what's going on and have those conversations that we may not feel comfortable putting on our spouse, putting on our loved ones or our friends and allowing us to sort of see the impact that those behaviors and thoughts and patterns are having on our lives from a third-party perspective has been really helpful for me in unpacking some of my childhood and realizing how I'm bringing that into current relationships and some patterns that I didn't even realize were there. And it doesn't matter how many conversations I've had with Johnny. I don't think he would have helped me get those breakthroughs either.

Speaker 1: So I think we oftentimes just go, oh, you know, I talk about that with my friends. I talk about that with my family, I have support and we don't realize that it's one click away. And if you don't like that therapist, the next therapist is one click away. And we've had some sponsors over the years that have moved into the telehealth space. And I think it's just such a powerful tool for anyone who's feeling isolated, who's feeling alone, having difficulties feeling that stress and that overwhelm and that anxiety, that imposter syndrome, these resources are available to you. And I have to say after, you know, starting over early summer till now, it's made a world of difference in not only my management of stress, but also just showing up and having more fun on the podcast and allowing myself to tap back into what I really enjoy about what we do here at the art of charm.

Speaker 3: Well, I'd love that. I'm so I'm so happy to hear that, you know, um, it just makes me, it makes me so happy when I hear people who were previously skeptical about therapy who have done it or coaching, you know, and they're like, wow, I really got a lot out of that. Cause I've heard all the arguments. And I think, you know, I've come up against people who are just like, no, absolutely not doing that. And when I've seen those people go and try a lot of times, they get the most out of it, you know? So that's just, and I'm, I'm happy to hear that you've gotten so much out of it. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Well I think unfortunately many of us have the stigma that it's only those who are in the most dire need of help that go get therapy. Many people don't realize. And it, and once I started sharing that I have a therapist, I started hearing from other people that they have a therapist and many top performers, many high achievers are seeing therapists. That's part of the reason they look so put together because they have that as high of importance as their physical health, as the food they put in their body as exercise,

Speaker 4: It is just as important. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3: And I th I think a big part of what it helps you do, and this is how I usually talk about it. Like, cause we'll go into companies and we'll do, uh, presentations around stress management, things like that. And as part of those, we'll recommend that people seek out therapy or coaching and we'll get this question a lot. Like, do I need therapy? It's kind of couched. Like, am I in bad enough shape that I need therapy? Do I actually have depression? Do I have an anxiety disorder? Do I have this label? Cause even some people really want to have a label and other people really don't want to have the label. Right. And I'll usually say, don't even think about it in those terms. It's more like, you know, all the right things, the right things to do to improve your stress. You know, like I can give you a list. I just gave you a list of things to do. If you look at that list and you go, I just can't bring myself to implement any of these changes to move myself in the right direction. That's when you should probably look for help from a therapist or a coach, because they're going to get in there with you. And they're going to say, here's the one you can try or this one. And they're going to provide that support in that structure. And maybe that, that friendly push to help you make those changes.

Speaker 1: It's certainly for me, one of the highlights of the week when I get a chance to check in and see the results on the other side, I mean, I've noticed a difference in all of my relationships and the way that I show up and how I feel internally in those interactions. So it's worked for me. Where can our audience find out more about what you do up there in the bay area?

Speaker 3: Yeah. So our clinic is called San Francisco stress and anxiety center. We are@sfstress.com like San Francisco, stress.com. Um, my name's Jonathan Horowitz. Um, and we have, we've got about 50 therapists in our practice and we have a handful of coaches as well. So, you know, if you're interested in doing teletherapy, then give us a ring and we can help you out. Now

Speaker 1: We love asking every guest what their X factor is. What is that trait or attribute that makes you extraordinary Jonathan?

Speaker 3: Huh? Clearly not my preparation.

Speaker 5: Um, you knew it was coming. Yeah.

Speaker 3: I didn't even think about that one. Um, I think what makes me, uh, I think actually my consistency in a, in a lot of ways, um, I was, I'm not naturally like this, but I was talking before about doing these practices like meditation, for example, and therapy and journaling and stuff like that. And so I'm thinking a lot about stress management today and I think it's taken me a lot of years to develop consistency in those kinds of activities, consistency, consistency in the habits that I know are good for me. But I think that, um, I've been able to do that. And that has enabled me to show up and be more present, whether I'm being a therapist or being a leader in the practice or in a place like this. And, uh, yeah, I think, and, and that's one of those things that everybody has access to. It's just a matter of putting effort toward building those kinds of habits.

Speaker 1: I love it. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Thank you guys. This

Speaker 3: Is great. I really appreciate it. [inaudible]

Speaker 1: Johnny. I know we've had a number of therapy sponsors on this show and we highly recommend therapy to help all of our listeners with their mental health. And it was so great to talk to our good friend, Jonathan, who has not only personally supported us, but is doing amazing things up in the bay area. For those struggling, with stress and anxiety,

Speaker 2: With everything going on right now, it is important to not only reflect, but have people that we can talk to so that we can avoid some of the traps that human nature and our own cognitive processes lay out for us and talking with Jonathan. It always makes me feel good because when I get wound up about things, he's one of those guys that I can talk to and realize I'm not the one who feels this way. I'm not doing anyone. Who's thinking this way. Others are in the same place. And that only goes to show and demonstrate just how much it is important to have the right people to talk to them.

Speaker 1: I know sometimes it's easy to think you could do it on your own. You can do everything. You just got to push harder, but it was one of the best decisions I made to get therapy this year from the stress center and coming out the other end. I now realize just how important managing that stress is in my life to my physical and mental health. So I couldn't think Jonathan Moore for stopping by now this week, shout out, goes to Joseph. Who's found himself in a new role at work. Joseph joined the X-Factor accelerator to improve his leadership skills. And he's admittedly an introvert and having an outward focus on leading a team is new to him. He's begun to implement some of the conversational pieces and has actually begun connecting with his new colleagues. He instantly saw results with his team members and he's excited for the transformation and the relationships that will blossom from him, unlocking his own X factor. Keep it up. Joseph we're rooting for you. Are you ready to unlock your X factor and reach your true potential apply today at unlock your X-Factor dot com?

Speaker 2: Could you do us in the entire art of term team, a huge favor. Could you head on over to iTunes and rate and review this podcast? It would mean the world to us helps others find the show and it helps us land incredible guests. The art

Speaker 1: Of charm podcast is produced by Michael Harold and Eric Montgomery. I hope everyone is enjoying their holiday weekend here in the states. I have a wonderful labor day. We will see you all next week.

Speaker 6: [inaudible] [inaudible].

Speaker 1: Welcome back to the art of charm podcast. A show designed to help you communicate with power and become unstoppable on your path from hidden genius to influential leader. Oh, you have

Speaker 2: What it takes to reach your full potential. And each and every week we share with you interviews and strategies to help you transform your life by helping you unlock your X-Factor. And whether you're in sales, leadership, medicine, and building client relationships or looking for love, we got what you need. You shouldn't have to settle for anything less than extraordinary.

Speaker 1: I'm J and I'm Johnny, thank you everyone for tuning into the show. Let's kick off today's interview today. We're talking with on Marta. OOD on is a behavioral advisor trainer and the CEO and founder of the behavior company based in Amsterdam, as we all know your behavior plays an essential role in getting your message across. And we got a lot of great feedback from you guys about our episode with Joe Navarro reached out to him to ask about other body language and communications experts that he personally recommends. And his immediate response was you need to talk to Ann. In fact, Joe and Anne coauthored, several articles for psychology today, including their latest viral article, the importance of validation and also lectures at several universities in the Netherlands. It is regularly hired as a specialist speaker on behavior and its effects. Welcome to the show, Anne. So great to have you with us.

Speaker 1: Thank you. One of the biggest myths that I think a lot of people have around reading body language is really just focusing on the body language itself and thinking that they can almost read the other person's mind and we enjoyed. And another discussion you had another interview, how you talked about there's much more that goes into reading and analyzing body language than just the signals that are being sent. There's the environment, there's the context there's who you're also speaking to and how you're reacting to them. So let's talk a little bit about what are these myths around reading body language and what can analyzing body language teach us and what can it teach us?

Speaker 3: Thank you for the question. I think it most important thing is realizing that it's not just body language as, okay, what do we do? But also attire. What do we wear? What is, uh, what is behind us on our screen? But a lot of people think that if they look into body language that they think they, they, they found the cute of the, the key to the matrix. Like now I know everything and they, when they observe people, they have this belief that they know everything already. Oh, this is that kind of person. And I know exactly how this person thinks. And that's a shame because I love it when people become aware of body language, but it cannot teach us what other persons are thinking, or actually what's going on in their mind.

Speaker 2: If you can correct me from, I believe it was Laura Wong, who we had interviewed when her book edge. And she talked about how it is important to tell your story or other people are going to tell your story. And of course, if they don't know that information, they're just going to put all these pieces together and it couldn't be farther from the truth. And you have that opportunity when you first meet people to give them that story and give them those pieces. So they're not randomly grasping at straws. And I certainly have family members who I, I recognize all the time, who just infer all these things about people without any research, any thought is speaking to them. And of course that drives their behaviors around these people. Yes,

Speaker 3: There's so many myths around it. And so many we'd like to draw conclusions very quickly. We want comfort. Our brain likes it if, oh, that must be that. Because then at least I have the safety of this thought or this, um, uh, reassurance. So we kind of might do it for ourselves, but it can become even dangerous. I would say I would sound like a big word, but it is. If you change your behavior or adapt your behavior based on only what you've observed and it is important to observe, but, uh, not draw every conclusion from it. Well,

Speaker 2: It's very interesting, but we were talking about my background earlier and just the way I look for a lot of people, when they, if they see the YouTube video though, it, their first thought is what is this guy, musician? So with this backdrop, it answers that question and they can, and for me, it's like, hopefully you're focusing now on what I'm saying rather than how I look.

Speaker 3: Yeah. But did you do a deliberately, did you choose, choose specifically? This is what I want to ch what I want to some background. Yeah. Yes.

Speaker 2: For that specific reason I wanted that question answered. So it's not in people's heads.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, and then it's very helpful if we make a conscious decision, like this is the background, this is what I want to be perceived at. Or maybe that you want to distraction to go to animal, which is so lovely in the corner. It's very bright and funny. So yeah, it's, it's very important. And especially these days when we have these digital conversations going on, a lot of people are not aware of their background. We've seen amazing videos, of course, with things going on in the background where everybody's distracted and it's funny, but in a way you can also say, is this what you want to ooze out? Is this what you want to be perceived at?

Speaker 1: This is one of the first times we've ever really had to consider environment because many of us were coming into a workplace that decided the environment for us. Now we get to pick our background. And our background says a lot about us, just like our nonverbal communication and our verbal communication does. Yes,

Speaker 3: Exactly. And I have even heard a lot of people that start with funny backgrounds because okay. We were in all full settings. True. So people wanted to have some novelty, some funny elements behind it, but up to the point where people started taking each other less seriously, oh, he's the guy who's always portraying something funny in the background. And, uh, yeah, it has cost situations in businesses as well.

Speaker 1: Now in mainstream media here in America, we often encounter body language experts, communication experts who are analyzing politicians or celebrities behavior. So we'll watch a video and they'll break down all of these body language signals. And it leaves the audience thinking that, wow, this body language expert can read someone's mind and they understand communication at such a great level. Can you tell us a little bit about your origin story and what you're doing at the behavior?

Speaker 3: Yeah. Thank you for their question. Well, I started as a, uh, at the academy of art. So officially I'm a director you could say from theater and all those kinds of things. One of the elements that we were taught is, okay, how do you portray yourself on stage? So you advise people in this case, actors, is it what I, what I want to see as a director is that visible? Is it, is it showing on stage? And in my last year, I was asked to talk into, at a company about presentation techniques and the CEO's had to present numbers to a big audience, and they wanted to become aware of stage presence. And for me, it was remarkable because nobody knew anything about body language, I would say. And they were in all like, oh, if I look at my audience in a broader view, it is more effective. I didn't know that. So that was one of the reasons why I started my work for guessing everything about theater, but using it in my line of work, in the behavior company.

Speaker 1: So when it comes to communication, we know it's important in business. And many of us haven't really been trained in how to communicate effectively at work. So what is some of the work that you do in the workplace with companies that hire the behavior company?

Speaker 3: Yeah. Making them aware. That's I would say that's one of the biggest things we do, especially higher up people do not get feedback anymore. Some people are afraid to talk to their CEO. They're like, oh, let's not, let's not give this person feedback. So one of the things we do is make them aware. Do you realize how you come across? And if you realize how you come across, is that the way you want to come across? And if not, of course, we help them with more effective behavior. So to change it in a better way so that it becomes better and more effective.

Speaker 2: So in this, uh, making people more aware, it's certainly being aware of their body language and how it affects themselves and the people in the room. Uh, are you making them aware of the certain forces pressures that are in the work environment that they should be conscious of that would have an unconscious impact on their body, language and behaviors?

Speaker 3: Yes. You make them aware on the themes. They just think, oh, I have something I want to get across. Let's go to the content and I'll address it to my peers, but to make them understand that there are certain elements in there. Yes. Context is important. Yes. Setting is important. Yes. Timing is important. Emotions are important just by addressing that. They start to realize, oh, communication might be a bit more difficult than I think it is. I just want to get a message across. And by making them aware of that, uh, it's helpful. Not just for them, but also for others, because other side, like, oh, he's, they are improving in their communication.

Speaker 2: Are there any pressures that you would be able to point to for our listeners, for them to be conscious of when they go to work to take a look at, to see whether or not it's hindering their performance or adding and helping their performance.

Speaker 3: I always say, are you comfortable? That's where it starts first. Do you feel comfortable with what you're doing? Because if you show up and you're already nervous and you, you have a certain behavior that it doesn't suit you, that that's where it starts. Do you realize who you are, what you bring to the table and if you feel comfortable, then the next step is okay. Are you observant of other people? What do they do? Do they avoid you is to proximity different, you know, they're, they get away from you. Are they focusing on you? Are they nodding their heads? So what I always look for is the, the comfort for both parties. Um, and, and you see that one day when people start doing that also young people, then they understand, oh, I I'm growing here. I'm not just being uncomfortable in my line of work, adapting to what is needed, but I feel comfortable as well as the other person.

Speaker 2: It's certainly important to be aware of that. And especially as human beings, because as you mentioned, we are so adaptable. In fact, we've been able to adapt to some of the harshest environments in the world and not only survive, but thrive. So to have those check-ins to, to be honest with yourself is incredibly important.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Aren't we amazing as humans

Speaker 1: In our experience, one of the biggest problems or issues that a lot of our clients face when they start this journey of looking at their communication is they over analyze themselves and it becomes very difficult for them, as you said, to actually listen and observe and put the focus outward in their communication. So in our classroom, we'll do video work and we'll tape our clients interacting with one another and then play it back. And it's remarkable how different that view that we have internally of ourself is from what the actual external world sees. But we often have to tell them it's important, not to just focus on every little thing that you're doing and all of those minutia instead it's to, as you said, focus more on what is the response? What's the reaction and how are people perceiving me? Not so much exactly what I'm doing at any given moment. So what guidance do you have for your clients who might be over analyzing their own communication to the detriment of the audience? Don't

Speaker 3: Aim for perfection, because you will never be able to be perfect in your communication, but being aware and striving for progress, especially when you start in the beginning of your job. Okay, what did, what went wrong? Analyze that? How can I change it? How can I adapt? But also talk to others. You know, you don't have to do it by yourself all the time. And, uh, find information, realize that you're not finished. You're not a finished project and you will never be a finished project. I mean, that, that at least that's my belief. There's always something to learn and to strive for, but never, never make the mistake on freezing because this is what happens a lot. And I think it's great that you take people, but also when people see themselves on video, it's like, oh no, they become. So self-aware that the behavior kind of mean they freeze up, it's smaller. They don't dare to move at all. And that's one of the biggest mistakes I would say. You could, you could make

Speaker 2: So two things that I want to point to there. And number one is due to, and we had talked about this many times on the show that technology is now influencing how we interact with people in real life and all of our interactions online for the most part, with it's asynchronous. So you can think about your reply. You can think about how you want to respond to things and how you want to react. And that gives people this safety zone, where they can come up with the perfect thing, but when it comes to real life, they cannot do that. And as you mentioned, and we, and AIG have a, a business coach, he always says that, uh, perfection is the enemy of done. And because, because of that, and as you mentioned, people get in this place where, because they're unable to think about the responses, they would rather not have to deal with being imperfect and avoid a lot of these things.

Speaker 2: And then also we were talking about the video work and how some people can get stuck in it. And this is specifically why we don't give the video to our clients. We go over it with them, we're all watching it together. We're pointing things out and we're saying, here's what you're going to take from it. Here's what you're going to leave with it. And they, oh, can I have my video? No, because you're going to end up playing it on a loop in your mind. And by the end, within four hours, or you sleeping over playing in your brain tomorrow, you will up, it's completely frozen, afraid to do anything. It happens more frequently than that. And it's, it's quite interesting. However, when you show here's what we're taking out of it, here's, here's this, these are things that are helping you in this situation, and this is your target for what you want to aim for and bring some more conscious effort towards it. They feel great because they saw the results on video. And sometimes it is an instant change just from the shock of seeing themselves.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. I fully agree. And, and what I ask my clients sometimes to do when I, when they look back only mention three good things. So don't mention what you think is wrong. Don't think what is so, because we all find little or maybe even big things that we could do differently, but what is good at what you did? What did, what was that element in your behavior, in your communication where you thought, oh, actually I want to take that with me in my journey, in life or in my journey and work. And, uh, making them aware through video is brutal, but very helpful.

Speaker 2: Every note is how many of the world's highest performers take on challenges that are completely outside of their expertise.

Speaker 1: We're talking Jeff Bezos launching himself into space. LeBron James producing films, Oprah Winfrey opening a school in South Africa, Kobe Bryant, writing children's books, Drake, creating a whiskey brand

Speaker 2: Accident. These high achievers take on such lofty endeavors. They have extreme confidence.

Speaker 1: These people have won so often in life that they believe they can tackle challenges that seem unattainable to the average person.

Speaker 2: Here's the trick you see, winning creates confidence. The more you experience wins in your life, the greater your confidence grows.

Speaker 1: This is why when we're coaching clients, we show them exactly how to achieve micro wins every single day, because in the wind start piling up, your confidence automatically follows. You finally had that conversation with a coworker you avoided for the last three weeks. When you scheduled an appointment with a trainer to finally start getting back into shape when you attended a community event last night, so you can meet new people,

Speaker 2: That's a win. How are you creating micro wins each day so that you can gain more confidence?

Speaker 1: Well, if you're not, and you're ready to start. Stacking wins in your life. Text us wins at 9 1 7 7 2 0 4 1 4. And let us help you win at work love and life that's. Plus 1 9 1 7 7 2 0 4 1 0 4, text wins. Pause the podcast now and join us. I think another big part of it is our clients get an opportunity to be filmed later. After they've learned how to use their body language, to communicate with greater impact and influence, and for them to see that growth on video and see the change in the reaction as people now perceive them differently, that's really powerful. That's empowering versus freezing. And one of the things that we love is how our body language influences our mood and the mood of those around us. What does the science showing us on that brain body connection and how linked our body language is to how we feel emotionally?

Speaker 3: Yeah, that is a good question. Well, one of the people who explain it perfectly would be Amy Cuddy. When you read her book presence, you see what we can do with our body helps us internally, but also sometimes with clothing, you know, you see that people who wear uniforms, um, all of a sudden be ha they, they have a different attack. When, when did tired is different, they become different. They feel more powerful. Of course, research. We all know research that has been done with putting on a lab code and telling this person, okay, you have a different, uh, you, you are, you're perceived different when you have a different attire, but you also feel different. And you see this with, uh, people who wear uniforms. They point they're more poised, you could say, yeah, definitely

Speaker 1: Agree on the even men wearing suits. You know, we see that with our clients, that when they go out, if they wear a more professional attire, they end up embodying a more professional communication style. And that influence is also felt by the audience. And that's, what's so fun about the video

Speaker 3: Work. I once was allowed to teach about self-marketing and presentation, and one person stood out, um, because his suit was three sizes too big. So, you know, I addressed it. And 18 months later, he almost ran up to me because we met again in a, in a different setting. And he said, I never realized how important a different suit can be, because what happened, people gave him more compliments, but also people came towards him. His networking became better because he had a different suit that made him feel different, but also made him look less sloppy. You could say,

Speaker 2: I love all that. And to add to that for myself as a musician, I perform quite regularly and I will dress according to what I want to project from the stage, or I will also dress to be a certain character that will fit in with the band that I am playing. So I I'll use dress as something that will, uh, help me perform and project something or to fit in and move the whole visual to a, to a different place. And so I can fully understand that. And I can also say at times, there's has been some Halloween shows or shows that we had dressed up outside of character, just for fun, for an effect and how odd I had felt in dealing with that. Um, because it had altered not only my playing, how I felt on stage and when I'm in front of people in that capacity, I want to feel as comfortable as possible because I want to elevate to the music. I don't want to be second guessing or being self-conscious while all these people were staring at me and that outfit could do that.

Speaker 3: Yeah. So they're focusing on not focusing on the music, but like, what is he wearing? Definitely. Yeah. What were you wearing AIG when, when it was Halloween?

Speaker 1: Oh, so for me, I like going with the scrubs going with the uniform. So playing doctor, I was a pre-med student back in the day. So I, I find scrubs to be comfy, but also give you that effect, that impact in a costume. Now you mentioned Amy Cuddy and one of our favorite quotes from her that she discusses becoming trustworthy. We often make the mistake in work situations of showing off our skills and our strengths before showing that we are trustworthy. And I know many in our audience are at that point in their career where they're looking to get ahead, looking to become a leader and being trustworthy is going to be one of those markers for success in your career. What are some of the easiest ways that we can begin to communicate that we are trustworthy in the workplace?

Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question. One of the things I, again, would address is know yourself, who am I, and what do I bring? What do I bring to the table? Because trustworthiness starts with knowing yourself because you have to be genuine. You have to realize if, if you, if you are quiet, if you're an introvert, be that person don't try to be somebody else. Um, but also realize what does the effect, what is the effect? And if you know that, then you can, you can communicate about who you are and what the, again, what the effect is that you have, but knowing yourself and knowing what your behavior is, and actually being genuine about that and knowing your qualities and pitfalls that come with that, that is really helpful becoming trustworthy. And I would also say one of the elements is knowing what you cannot do. So being open and maybe even kind of, um, how would we say this humble, uh, when it comes to starting, because sometimes I work with young people, young clients, and they think they can do anything. So they're so focused on going up that ladder and they have this ambition showing off their skills, but knowing that you are still be, or you're be humble, try to figure out things that helps as well.

Speaker 1: I definitely agree with that. I think many of us, when we fall into the showing off and trying to prove ourselves, we actually tip towards faking it until we make it, which actually sends the wrong signals, makes us less trustworthy and puts people on edge subconsciously. And I think one of the greatest signals that we talk about in our program is just working on the confidence to hold eye contact when speaking. So I know many in our audience early in their career, if they don't feel that they belong in the room, they're struggling with imposter syndrome or self doubt and can be really difficult to look people in the eyes when you're communicating, but that does convey a level of confidence and start to build that trust that you need in a leadership role. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And also realizing that when you come into a room, it's, it's not just eye contact, but also where do you sit at the table? Do you dare to take up some space, put your stuff on the table, or do you really harvest everything around you? These little things, you know, and when it comes to body language, when you feel that you're genuine, when you feel you have confidence, uh, it shows and people, people, when you show confidence, people immediately see you as more trustworthy. And this

Speaker 2: Brings up an interesting point. That is, that is happening today. And I would love to hear your thoughts on this. You're were discussing th you were talking about the little things and the niceties and where to sit and this and that. And there's a lot of that just comes from a lot of socialization, especially as a child, as you're learning these things in, you're learning to be cooperative with the other children, you're learning to read, uh, subconsciously the microexpressions. And we're now going in the, almost what year, two of this pandemic, where, where these children are wearing masks, where they're separated, where they're not interacting. And what do you see in the future? That's and what are your thoughts on for these children where perhaps they can, uh, compensate for what they're losing at school?

Speaker 3: Let let's not forget that even with a mask, we can still see a lot in nonverbal communication. We're wired to see everything else now. And especially children. I had an interaction the other day wearing a mask in a Metro, and we were smiling, but, well, of course they couldn't see my mouth, but you can see it in the eyes and, you know, you can make your eyes bigger. So a lot is still drawn from a non-verbal communication without a mask. But I think that, um, the interaction, which would be different because a lot of people are on zoom or digital homeschooling. That is very interesting. What's going to happen there if people are of, for instance, proximity. Um, I would say there was, there was a reason to a situation where people went back to school or children went back to school and they were all in shock because they've kind of forgotten how the other persons were behaving.

Speaker 3: Uh, so the, the, the, you know, the, the, um, the way they behaved was different than when it was digital. So I think it's, it's going to be a challenge for people to pick up on who, how are we interacting even with myself, you know, a lot of sessions, I do our life, of course, there in large audiences. So you are addressing a lot of people, uh, and you can read the body language of course, in a different way when you see the whole body. But, uh, yeah. It's, I even have two different to go back to it and to see a lot of things going on, you have a lot of impulses. People have to be calm about it even, or they have to, uh, readjust.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's like a, re-entry almost, we've talked about this on the show. Uh, I'm feeling social anxiety, even though we teach clients how to communicate more effectively, simply because this experience has gone away for the last year and a half. I hadn't been in the room with other people and he mentioned presenting. And I think this is a real challenge now because, uh, when we were taught to speak on stage, we're taught to take up a little bit more space, actually work the stage. We have more ability to use our hands to communicate. And here we are communicating over video and we have this nice little tiny box here. So how have you changed your presentation, style and skills over zoom versus being in front of an audience? And you, you brought up a key point right now. We don't have that ability to read the audience and their response. You know, we don't have a thousand little tiny boxes that we can stare at while we're presenting to see those cues back as a speaker. So how have you adjusted to speaking in this new environment digitally?

Speaker 3: Yeah. I still try to observe some, seeing Johnny adjusting his hair and everything's on chicer reasons. No, that's just an observation. Um, one of the things, if I reflect on myself, I had to tone it down. When you say you work, the stage is it starts when you, when you present yourself, it doesn't start. When you start your speech on stage. It starts when you enter this venue, when you're in the building, everything. And now it's just, okay, five minutes before you put on the video and it starts. So that is an adjustment from my side that I had to get into the, to the setting by myself without being in a venue where you chat a bit with others. So that was a big adjustment. There's

Speaker 2: An atmosphere there when you're alive and you're in-person, and there's an energy from the, that that fires you up or, or puts you in a position where you have to work a little bit more for it. And it's, you don't have that on the screen. And, and it's difficult. We're all adjusting where human beings, we can adapt to anything. But I know I certainly miss being in the room with, with, with people and feeding off their energy and, and using that to propel myself into either playing on stage or to, to network.

Speaker 3: Yes, it's hard because for you, you don't exactly, as you say, you don't feel the energy, but I would say even worse, sometimes people are not aware of their behavior. So they're watching somewhere else or they're different. I even had somebody and I made that very personal, who was laying like this during his speech being a bloody language expert. I addressed it, which was fantastic because we could use it in the, in the setting, but it is, it's very, very difficult to one, not make it personal, how people are on the other side, but also to get yourself energized on, okay, I have to create an energy or a vibe that normally would come with everybody being present and in a venue,

Speaker 2: Interesting point. And why I love what we do is I consider it somewhat of a super power. You're conscious of all these things. Especially if you work so hard on yourself, you can only see them now in other people. And there has been times, and I'm going to guess this is true for you too, where it's like, I wish I didn't know what I knew as I just what I was because of what I just saw. Yes.

Speaker 3: Yes. And that's absolutely true. And I would say also, I may, what we talked about earlier, not making the mistake of thinking that, you know, what's going on. So the story I would love to share, because it was so funny to me, I was, I was teaching in a university and everybody was on their phone and I felt left out. Like I I'm doing all of this. I'm really working hard. And I addressed it being blunt and Dutch, of course, but also because it is about body language turned out and they showed me that they were taking notes on their phone. So sometimes you observe something, you think, oh, this is what's going on. I'm not, I'm not good enough. Or I'm not interacting in a positive way. And still you make the mistake. Oh, yes. I didn't check what it was. So I draw a conclusion that is not, uh, that is not true. Yeah.

Speaker 1: That's certainly a cognitive distortion that we all have as humans that we personalize people's behaviors and reactions around us, even if they have absolutely nothing to do with us. And that's a pitfall that we will have often when reading body language, where you talk a lot about those self-soothing mechanisms, and you can read that as, oh, I'm boring on stage, or this person isn't interested when actually the air might've just kicked on and it got chilly in the room. So we have to use the signals, but understand that the signals are imperfect. And we have a proclivity to assume that it has to do with us when sometimes these signals have nothing to do.

Speaker 2: This is why we teach the cognitive distortions along with our classes so that people can understand that they're going to draw conclusions, that we need to challenge them before they put their foot in their mouth. Yes, exactly.

Speaker 3: Well, I'm happy you do that because it's so important that we realize this and especially, it's also to become aware, like what can I do and what can I not have? What is so sorry to realize, what can I do, but also what can I not do? And for me, it's about pacifying behavior. I'm so alert when it comes to pacifying behavior, that, that, because I look for this comfort level for both parties. And if I see certain behavior that might be come from this comfort, I always realized I always reflect, oh, is there something I did wrong? Should I do something differently? But we should know, of course that is not always the case. Sometimes it's just people who want to enhance their, you know, the feeling or that they just, um, are a bit distracted. Yeah.

Speaker 1: So what are some of these pacifying behaviors that you encounter?

Speaker 3: Well, there are hundreds, hundreds, TJ. So when it comes to, uh, pacifying behavior, you could say, it's usually focused on touching yourself, but that pacifying behavior can be women, you know, playing with their hair, but it could also be stroking your cheek or just these little things that we do. Um, but when it comes to stressful situation, so this is small when it's more stressful, you see more emphasis on it. So what you see sometimes it's distortion of the hands or ringing off the hands, or even, you know, people who sometimes you can just adjust your hair. But if you see this kind of behavior that would be, uh, showing less comfort, um, you can also see it with people who play with, uh, items that they have. So sometimes you just do this with a pen, okay. That is a pacifying behavior. That might not be very distracting, but sometimes you even see people. I don't, I don't have a click pen, but you know, they go there all the time, repetition on that. So th these are the things you can look out for. Um, and it could mean that there's a setting that this person is just, uh, feels this discomfort, and maybe you have something to do with it. So when you're in a setting that where it happens, you could reflect on yourself, oh, did I say something? Or did I do something to cause this discomfort?

Speaker 1: Well, I love that idea that we can't get there unless we are comfortable. And once we're comfortable, now we start seeing these signals and adjust accordingly. And when you're not at a place of comfort yourself, it doesn't matter what micro-expressions, you're picking up on or pacifying behaviors. Your discomfort is going to be the strongest signal, especially if you're presenting your in the leadership position. So I think that's a really important thing to understand that we have to first get ourself comfortable, and we have to recognize these behaviors in ourself. Why am I cracking my knuckles? Why am I making myself smaller and giving myself a self hug? Why am I touching my face incessantly? Is there some nervous energy behind that? Is there some anxiety that's coming up for me? And how can I tackle that first before focusing on everyone else's behavior.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And to analyze where does it come from? Is it because of the content of the situation of the conversation? Is it because of the setting? Is it because of the person across from me? Or is it internally like, oh, I feel uncomfortable. I feel stressed. And if we are aware of that, then things will get better in communications. I would say

Speaker 1: Now, one of our favorite super powers in communication, and really what generated this interview was us discussing with Joe a article, you co-authored with him around emotional validation and just how important it is in the workplace. And we talk a lot about it on the show, but again, many in our audience struggled to understand its impact and struggled to really implement it in them, their own interactions, both at work and at home. So let's unpack emotional validation and how we can really use it in the workplace to become better leaders.

Speaker 3: It is so important. And I must say that the article has gained so much a reaction that people say, oh, thank you so much. Even CEOs who said, oops, we don't do this in our businesses when it's such an important element, because we need to be validated. We need to be comforted in a way. And it sounds, sometimes it sounds juvenile like, oh, we all need, you know, a pat on the back, but that's not what it is. It is realizing that, okay, there's this person in my work place, in my work area that shows up, of course you get paid because people say this, yeah, you get paid for it. It's not important, but that's not the case. If you understand that this human being who loves to be validated just by saying, you're doing a good job, or if you having a bad day, tell me what's going on. How can I help you all these little elements when it comes to validation, help us to create better working environments and therefore better work in people, but also more comfortable situations for everybody. And it's, if you think about it, I would say it's not even that hard. If you realize that you take time to focus on the other person in front of you or the team that's in front of you guys, you did a good job and actually genuinely mean it because it's not just the words, of course.

Speaker 1: Well, I know we're all emotional creatures. We're not robots. And unfortunately many in leadership positions treat us as just cogs in a machine and robots expected to perform. But our emotions, both positive and negative ones impact our performance impact our productivity and our work-life balance. Our actual value that we derive from the work that we do. And it really is a shame that many of us are seeking validation. And in turn, we don't give it to others. And that's what I found so interesting as a leader. I think it's far more important to give validation and understand that it comes back through leading by example, versus those leaders who are like, well, my team never recognizes me when I'm doing a great job. And my team doesn't recognize everything that I do for them. I think that's really the wrong way to look at it when you are in that leadership role. Yeah.

Speaker 3: You have to set an example. One of the elements I teach when it comes to giving feedback is never say, oh, you did a good job. Why, what was it specifically that you fell that you wanted to emphasize on as a leader? And by showing that behavior by, by letting people know, oh, I liked this project because you guys were on time, you stayed in within budget or all those kinds of things. You sets an example of how to give feedback. And then it's almost magic. It starts to come back as well. You have to be open as a manager to be validated. So you can ask team, what would you say I did ride, or what did I do wrong? Um, but you have to set an example first.

Speaker 2: And I think this is important for CEOs managers, team leaders, to understand that human beings have certain motivations and certain psychologies were certainly cognitive processes. That if not, if they're not focused on something, if they're not engaged, tend to be detrimental, they get bored. And with that boredom, we tend to start ripping things apart, our relationships. And this is when we start inferring that, or assuming that there's a lot of things that are going on. So if you're not engaging with your employees and they're bored, then they're, they're left to their own thought processes. And this is when they begin to start writing stories, uh, narratives that are going on in the office, that out of the blue, and then start behaving according to these narratives. And when you give them that feedback and you're encouraging, celebrating, supporting them, they're now engaged though. They're now focused on the task at hand and they won't be bored to come up with these crazy stories.

Speaker 1: I think another key is understanding that just because you've validated one emotion is not enough. Validation is an ongoing process to allow your team to really feel that they're contributing. And they have an impact within the company because no one goes into work saying they don't want to have a meaningful, impactful experience. We all want to be there to feel that we are appreciated to feel that we're moving the goals forward. And if we aren't, we want to be supported for whatever effort we did put in. Even if we miss the mark. And we hear a lot from managers who we work with that, oh, well, I validated their emotions. How many times? How often, why are you assuming that? Just because you validated the emotion that they actually heard it and they responded to it, you know, and that's where the nuance of body language comes in.

Speaker 3: So are you aware of how you validate them? Was it your preference or, or did you actually listen to your team and how they want to be validated and sometimes not even verbally, maybe you can just give them a day off if that's possible to validate them. Yeah.

Speaker 2: It comes into play with Gary. Chapman's love languages and how people prefer to get validated. And there's many different ways and his, this book lays them all out. And it's interesting because the way you prefer to be validated is not going to be the same way for somebody else. And this brings up another question in people's motivations and how they like to be validated. And I mentioned this earlier that, and I'm guessing that your background, it comes from a very academic place. And you've been working with Joe Navarro, who we've just had on the show, um, a few weeks ago. And he's a body language expert. For those of you who haven't seen listened to the interview, please check it out. It was fantastic. And what did you find maybe unique or different or, um, just out of the blue that you never took in consideration or, or just you, that this came from Joe and his experience of being an FBI person and understanding people's motivations from high pressure situations? Well,

Speaker 3: Joe, Joe is the goat, as we say the greatest of all times. One of the things that I think is remarkable that the people he worked with or encountered, you could say that's a different kind of level than we all encounter in business settings. Um, so one of the things that I think everybody is, uh, is obligated to read is dangerous personalities because it takes human, um, human behavior to a different level than we all realize that there's so many people out there that are dangerous, but have certain personalities that we also encounter in, in business settings. But we're not always aware of. And what he brings to the occasion is this, um, very specific knowledge about behavior that is not always the level of, you know, this is not as nice to work with, or this colleague isn't really aligned with me. Know what we see when we listen to Joe, he's encountered people who have such a different level of, uh, awful behavior. If I may say that,

Speaker 1: Well, definitely part of what goes on in these situations is conflict. And many of us are not trained, educated in how to communicate in conflict. We often experience it in our childhood and how our family deals with conflict and those patterns then carry over into how we deal with conflict in the workplace. And a healthy work environment has conflict. Conflict actually helps us solve problems, get things done. If we avoid conflict in the workplace, we're not a very productive team. And unfortunately, even in my own experience, I grew up in a very conflict avoidant household and conflicts were not communicated clearly or head-on they were swept under the rug, so to speak. And then of course there was even bigger emotional outburst once they piled up together and it was multiple conflicts. So I didn't have the tools until I really started working on my own communication to be better in these situations. Again, many in our audience are now in a place where they're leading a team where conflict is inevitable, and maybe they haven't been trained in how to have these difficult conversations. So let's unpack how do we approach difficult conversations in the workplace? And are there things that you recommend we do to prepare ourselves for the inevitable conflict

Speaker 3: Do's and don'ts, I would say yes. So conflict is growth, which is a great way to start from, because if you do not realize that you will avoid it because it's not comfortable and it will never be comfortable, but we have to realize, okay, this is the case. Um, by knowing that it's difficult, a lot of people just either avoid them. Um, and so like, let's not go there, which as you said, builds up a lot of pressure, so that's okay. Um, but it could also mean that people, I would say there are four kinds of styles, so one is avoiding them. One is addressing it full on with the pressure you feel like I've got to say it right now. Then you have people who want to address it, but they're very vague. So it's kind of like going around, beating around the Bush.

Speaker 3: And of course you have people which I would highly recommend that effectively have a difficult conversation, which will never be relaxed because there are emotions involved. Um, one of the advices of, one of the advices I have is don't stall do it as quick as possible, as soon as possible, but soon as possible for both parties. Because again, here we have the comfort level that is important for both you and the other person. So what I see sometimes is that somebody builds up the courage, oh, I'm going to address this now, and I'm going to prepare for it. And I've done this so well, but they forget for instance, that the other person isn't ready or the other person is just focusing on work and they blurted out. So the do would be prepare a know your role and know your goal. So to say no, the other person, and be very much aware, uh, of timing and comfort

Speaker 1: Comfortness. And that brings up a great point that in these situations, especially if it's personal environment matters, so provoking a conflict with people who are not involved, you don't need to be involved in the room. And that environment is only going to make matters worse. So part of the preparation is making sure that you have the time and the space, the right environment to have that conversation in a meaningful way. Now don't stall. This one is, is so important too, because we often see and hear from our clients that they're stewing on this conflict. They're thinking through everything they're going to say, and they're holding onto it and giving it all of this meaning, but they're waiting. And, and a few days go by and the other person has no idea that there's conflict has already moved on. And here you are, you waited too long to handle it. And now it isn't an impactful conversation that can move forward.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And your emotions, if it's an emotional setting for you piles up. So the stress level rises and what you see, of course, when we're stressful or when we're stressed, the neocortex doesn't function as it should be. So that makes again a less of a effective communication and the conversation.

Speaker 2: How many times have people work themselves up over a conflict and, and over nothing only to finally get to a place where both people can discuss what is going on and, and realize that there isn't an issue. And that it was that it was just manufactured in their minds. And that venting is so important to at least let's put everything on the table and see where the conflict actually is, because it may not be where you think it is. And then now you, now you have an opportunity to be a problem solver. And for both parties to come up with a win-win

Speaker 3: Yeah. What I try to teach people is, is it the content that causes this stress? Because if we usually, if we address the content, it's okay, Hey, this is the fact I want to tell, or this is my observation. I would like to tell you, but the other two themes. So I'm making a triangle because I believe that this, this is the three elements that are very important in a difficult conversation. So one would be content and the other one would be procedure. That's like, when, when did it take place? Or is it in the future? Maybe says you're building up to something. And thirdly, that's the interaction. And the interaction holds all the elements that are very difficult for us to control. So that would be emotions that would be personalities. That would be a different style in communication or a different style in addressing, uh, conflicts, as you said, age. So all these elements you have to figure out, is it literally the content? No, actually we kind of agree on the content sometimes. Oh, it's everything around it. Yeah.

Speaker 1: I think another big struggle that I know I've gone through as well in conflict is so focused on what I want to say or what I want to get across that I don't often pay attention to the other perspective being presented in that conflict. And you can be in a situation where you're almost having two entirely different conversations if you're not listening to the other person. And one of the strategies that I like to employ is at least paraphrasing and repeating back to the other person, their perspective, to make sure that we're actually working from common ground, because oftentimes you may miss hear something and then misrepresent something. And in that conflict, it can go a lot worse than if you just took the time to be like, okay, are we at least in agreement that this is where we're starting from, this is what we're focused on. And if you're not able to paraphrase and state back what the other person just said about this experience, it's going to be very difficult from there to get to a resolution.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And if you want to address something difficult, I would always say, you have to responsibility to be the conductor in this setting or the director. The metaphor I like to use is you're the pilot. So if you are aware of what's going on and you want to go somewhere, you have to bring this other person on board. So the helicopter metaphor, sometimes we zoom out, are we on the same level here? Do we agree on the same thing, but also where are we flying off to? Am I on the same setting? Are we focused on the same thing? And, uh, to, uh, summarize things really is really helpful.

Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting due to the technology we have, and I've seen this in real life as well, where we're, people will answer their own questions and then infer that you had said it. And I see it on a lot of, uh, Twitter arguments where people are projecting a lot of things that were said, or inferred in a tweet. And it's like, that was not said at, at all. And yet we get so wrapped up in it. I also have a family member who will me questions, answer those questions themselves. And then, then hold me to their answer, Mike, that didn't even happen. And this is a very, it's a very common thing.

Speaker 3: And then for me, I'm curious, do you address that this family member does it is because it sounds like a difficult conversation, so we can have a difficult conversation about what is going on. Did you address it

Speaker 2: Younger? I just ignored it. Now I call it out every time because I'm just like, I'm not, I'm not going to be accused of things that I did not say or did not do. So I call it out and it's made the relationship a bit more, uh, what, a lot more contention. Uh, but at least I'm not going down as somebody who said this or

Speaker 1: Did that. Now. I know also in difficult conversations, pacifying behaviors come up because there's tension and pressure and stress. And we want to one, again, as we said earlier, be aware of our own body language and what we're communicating in these tense moments and to recognize what's happening in the other person's response to what we're saying. And are we actually getting our point across in an effective way or are they building up a wall and they're not really ready to hear what we have to say to work through that difficult conversation.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Are we observant enough at that moment when our emotion is rising, when we want to get something across, are we still able to let that go or at least, you know, calm it down a bit so that we are aware what is the effect on the other person? And if we are observant enough to see pacifying behavior, can we address it again? We should make the mistake like, oh, now you're angry. Maybe not, but we can say, what is your thought right now? Or how do you feel right now? So you can talk about that and address

Speaker 1: That. And for those in our audience who maybe their emotions get the best of them in these situations, what strategies or techniques can we use to lower our emotional tendencies going in and preparation for these difficult conversations?

Speaker 3: Yeah. What, what I, what I like to, again, the helicopter metaphor is very helpful for people to realize he don't always have to have a conversation there. And then so to land the helicopter and go out, just, you know, literally leave the room sometimes can be very helpful. Um, but also to pause, not say anything, just wait for a while, maybe even count to 10 for some people, uh, write something down, you know, you don't always have to look at the other person, but maybe you want to write something down to avoid eye contact for us for a moment. So you can reorganize yourself in a way or get your emotions to get there little things that you can do. Uh, but it starts with, again, being aware, why is this happening? Why is it, why is my emotion and more intense now? Is it because of something the other person said, or is this conversation going too slow?

Speaker 3: So that awareness helps you again to realize what is needed for me right now in this situation to have a better discussion or a better a conversation. And sometimes you don't have the conversation you say, okay, I'm sorry. I feel my emotions rising. I think it's better if we do this tomorrow or would it be okay to stop the conversation right now because I'm too tensed. And I want us to have a good relationship, even when this difficult conversation is happening. So, but it takes guts to address that and to zoom out what's going on.

Speaker 1: I liked that helicopter analogy, Johnny and I always laugh at some of the terrible advice that we hear around body language and communication. What is some of the worst advice that you've seen when it comes to communicating effectively or with body language

Speaker 3: That people want to spot lies? Oh, if you do this, then you're a liar. There's so many awful things out there that makes me, that makes me stressed. Um, so I would always say it is fantastic if you're into Bella body language, but please, please, please take the whole context into consideration what's going on. Um, you know, if somebody, as you said uses, it has uses a self hug. It might be because they're cold. Um, we don't know. So never draw too too quickly about what's going on. Ask, I would say always, always go to valid validating what you observe.

Speaker 1: Yeah. It's such a great point and understand that even in science, we need to collect many data points before we can draw any conclusions and body language is no different and a snapshot. One tiny moment in time, a micro expression does not give you the right to believe that you're a lie detector. You're reading someone's mind and then projecting all of those other qualities onto that person. I'd

Speaker 3: Use it because it's not nothing we've studied it. We, we know, uh, of course, uh, of, uh, scientifically scientific research that there is information out there, but still we have to be careful that we not too rigid in how we think or how we come across or how we observe the other person. And as you said before, how we react to that person, based on the observation we have

Speaker 2: In our work with making people aware of their own cognitive distortions and how they're playing a role in how they perceive things and then their, their behavior that goes along with that, uh, it's quite interesting that if they haven't seen it before and have checked those cognitive distortions, then they have allowed them to run wild. And if they use a cognitive and one area of their life and they never checked it, it usually ends up in another area of their life. And if you could pull out one there and show them just how flawed that line of thought is, uh, it, it shakes them up enough to where they're like, I want to get rid of that anywhere that it shows itself. So it's a quite important, and it comes back to, as you said, at the beginning of this, of just making people of where, of these things and how they make you feel, how they make you think and how it impacts your body language.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And then you can address it because if I see discomfort with you, knowing my weird behavior, knowing myself like, oh, I made a mistake, Johnny, sorry, what did I do? Or how can, how can we change this? And that's different. But if you're aware of it, then, you know, we both have this interaction that is helpful, that we both feel this, um, obligation to have a better communication going on. And if it's, if it's the both of us, then we can create more comfortable, uh, settings.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Now we love asking every guest what their X factor is. What is it that makes you extraordinary? What do you think your X factor is? How do you stand out?

Speaker 3: Thank you for that question. That is always, that this has to do with self reflection and also a bit of ego here going on. But what clients tell me is that I'm enthusiastic and that I'm not afraid to point out what's in front of me, especially at this level with CEO's who do not get feedback, or, you know, I'm not afraid to say what I see, what I see or what I observe and especially what the effect is. And, uh, that is something helpful in my line of business that I'm not afraid to point things out.

Speaker 1: Well, your candor has been greatly appreciated on this episode. Thank you so much for joining us. And where can our audience find more about what you do at the base of your company?

Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much for being in, it was such a pleasure. I mean, you guys are amazing and also funny, which is great to have a lovely chat. Uh, they can find me on LinkedIn or on Twitter, just on America outs. If they look it up, uh, it's a difficult name to pronounce, but you can also find me through the behavior company. Thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 4: [inaudible]

Speaker 2: Hey, Jay, this is one of the episodes that I love because we're dealing with subjects that you and I have spent the last 15 years researching, studying, and working with clients to help build their body language and their behaviors so that they are not hindered life, but they are propelled. And those hurdles are removed.

Speaker 1: There is no more powerful communication than non-verbal. It starts the second you enter that room and has a far lasting impression, every single person you meet. And that's why it's so fun to bring on body language experts like Anne, to help us break down what we should and shouldn't be doing. If we're trying to build trust, when people over and of course influence results in our life, it was so great to have her join us with such practical advice. This

Speaker 2: Week, shout out, goes to our X-Factor member. Eric. Now Eric has come to us because he had to deal with some anxiety and he was stepping into a new role at his company. He has the duty of fundraising and pitching energy, conserving products, not something that everyone is excited to hear about. And for an introvert, it's a fish out of water tale. Now he has two presentations coming up this week and rather than dreading them, he's excited about them. He's looking forward to not only pitching, but an opportunity to grow from those presentations right on

Speaker 1: Eric. If you want to be like Eric and join our X factor accelerator, head on over to unlock your X factor.com to apply today each and every week. Johnny and I are coaching X-Factor members to win at work love and life. Just like Eric. We want you to be our next success story. Unlock your X-Factor dot

Speaker 2: Com. Also, could you do us in the entire art of charm team, a big favor, head on over to iTunes and rate and review this podcast. It would mean the world to us helps others find the show and helps us get great guests, such as Anne.

Speaker 1: They are a charm podcast is produced by Michael Harold and Eric Montgomery. Huge, thanks to them. And you, our listeners go out there and have an epic

Speaker 4: [inaudible].